TD&T125 Sue Taplin talks about outdoor learning in D&T

This was a new topic for me - outdoor learning in D&T. Sue Taplin talks about her work as a forest schools leader and her EdD

Episode transcript

Mentioned in this episode

Ciaran Ellis posted a thought-provoking question on LinkedIn recently: Do design decisions involve value judgements?

What do you think? Join the conversation over on LinkedIn and let us know what you think. 

Transcript

Alison Hardy: 0:57

This week's podcast I'm with somebody again that I've never met yet in real life, who I should try. Remember how we actually first of all had a conversation a couple of weeks ago, and after Sue told me she didn't actually hack into my diary. Apparently I sent her the link. So there we go. So we've booked our first conversation. And as I did my usual I said, Well, rather than just talking to me when it comes to talk on the podcast, because I think teachers will be really interested in what what Sue's doing so I'm going to hand over to Sue Taplin, who can tell us more about herself, who she is what she is, not what she is, but you know, who you are, where you are, and what you do. There you go. Let me get it right off. Over to you.

Sue Taplin: 1:34

Thank you so much, Alison. So I'm Sue Taplin. I work for a school in HeartShare secondary school in Hartford cheer, and I head up herbs and Technology faculty. In addition to that, I think it'd be useful for when I talk about my my ID later on. I'm also a forest school leader. And I manage a small woodland on the school grounds. And yeah.

Alison Hardy: 2:01

So could I'm curious about the fact that you're a forest school leader. I mean, I, we talked about forest schools at Nottingham Trent in the context of primary school. So can you tell me a little bit more about what you mean about forest schools in your context? And what

Sue Taplin: 2:15

Yeah, well, that was my starting point, really, I don't really follow forest schools anymore. And it's a bit of a content, contentious issue, because a lot of schools call themselves for schools, but they're, they're actually got to train for a school leader. But they've heard about Forest School, and they think when you take students outdoors, then you're doing Forest School. But that's not actually generally the case. And actually, at secondary school, it's really quite difficult to follow the forest school way. And so although my leader although have been trained in that, and was trained in that probably about 15 years ago, I don't actually, although I'm for a school leader, I don't actually follow follow the same process. But I do encourage student teachers wherever they're subject to take their lessons outdoors. And I've been doing that for yeah, like I say about 15 years ago, what happened was I got some funding, some skim funding. And I like to read Greenwood woodworking. And a friend of mine, Andrew Lehmann used to run green woodworking courses. And we, we decided that we were going to encourage my school to have an outdoor classroom. And so in this small woodland, we together with the students and the staff, we built a roundhouse shelter, which can get about 30 students under it. And that's within this sort of Acre acre and a half woodland that we've got got out the school. So whatever the weather, we can take students up there, and we can use nature in order to support the learning.

Alison Hardy: 3:45

So I'm making some notes while we're talking. Because I'm thinking I'm sure people would love to see what that actually looks like. So I'm assuming you've got some photographs or a website or something, we can put a link in the show notes to

Sue Taplin: 3:58

afford that say that sorry, you asked me about primary schools. So yeah, you're right. It is generally it is generally primary schools that that that do the forest school. But I think that there's a there's a gap, there's a gap for secondary school students. And there's like amazing things going on in primary school, and they get to secondary school. And it's a very, very different experience. And I think that's one of the things that it's really important to carry on that that idea where there's not this separation between indoors outdoors, between humans and nature, you know, we're all part of the same thing. You know, if we want diver, if we want diversity, then we need to make sure that we include sort of the more than the human world as well, we need to have humans our more than the human world and to make sure that the learning is really, really relevant.

Alison Hardy: 4:46

Yeah. So. So for those people who aren't familiar with forest schools, can you tell us a little bit about it, and then also, then the spin on how you've taken it and what you're doing?

Sue Taplin: 4:57

Yeah, so for schools is when the teacher generally take students outdoors, they act as a facilitator. And is it normally a two hour session with a break in between, and really, whether if you've only got one tree in school, or if you've got like me lucky enough to have a small woodland, the students go out there and they lead the learning. And the teacher facilitates that. So they could be doing maths or English or history that all takes that all takes place outside. And the forest school would encourage students to use tools that would encourage students to learn how to make fires. Yeah, so that's how it works. And actually I've been to a school in in North London, where they literally had a car park with a one tree in it. And the teacher there has done incredible work in order to make sure that the the parents can see what the students are doing at this forest school, and they raise money to get their first firepit so the students could have a fire as well. And they, they get to, you know, have this free time outside where they lead their their own learning. But that doesn't work. So when in secondary school,

Alison Hardy: 6:07

right, okay, so So how do you modify it to fit within.

Sue Taplin: 6:11

So how I would find that is I make sure I can support teachers to be able to fit that within their one hour lesson time that they can get to this space and back and be able to make connections with the curriculum, because for a school doesn't necessarily do that.

Alison Hardy: 6:28

Yeah, okay. Give us an example.

Sue Taplin: 6:31

So for example, a math lesson, they may be doing trigonometry. And they would go to the outdoor portion, and they would try and work out the height of a tree. Yeah, or, or music. Listen, I've had incredible music lessons at the outdoor classroom, because it allows for a range of spaces for different learners. So there may be really confident students that go out and they're going to bang the drum and they're going to sing loud, or probably do a dance in a big space. But there's other people that that doesn't come as easy, and they don't feel as confident, although they really want to be engaged in the learning. And they'll find themselves a space maybe with a couple of other students and, and they can record something quite quietly. And, but but they're not getting disturbed by the other students that and it's the same for all lessons, really, it really just gives a really good space in which the the students can learn and take part.

Alison Hardy: 7:26

And so do do most of the subjects in your school, then go and use the outdoor classroom.

Sue Taplin: 7:31

Yeah, um, I'd like to say yes, but it's, it's a big push. We've got work going on at the moment, we have like, CPD, where where teachers take part in different sessions that middle leaders put on. And I'm doing one on each connection and place. I've got about four teachers involved in it at the moment. But over the last 1015 years, I would say every subject at some point, has taken lessons, lessons outdoors, I would love it to be you know, push further in school, I think sometimes, you know, there's certain certain things that we we push in schools, and I would love it, if there was a real desire to get nature connection, pushed in school.

Alison Hardy: 8:16

So let's bring it to the context, Tonto context, design and technology then so what some of the things that you're doing within design and technology using the outdoor classroom.

Sue Taplin: 8:26

Today, yeah, today, I took a class outside because a year age group, we're thinking about biodiversity. And we're thinking about how can we encourage that in our gardens or balconies at home. And it's a real noticing lesson. And so we go outdoors, and I show them first of all show the difference between a hardwood and softwood tree. And quite often is it quite incredible things that I grew up just kind of knowing students don't seem to have that same knowledge anymore. So I hold up a pine cone to talk about, you know, how the seeds spread, and when the pine cones open up, and how they're an incredible smart material. And most students think that's actually an acorn. And so you know, I tell them about that, then there's a sycamore tree next to them, and I'd show them the difference between the seeds, the difference between what makes a hardwood and what makes us off wood, and then led them out to up to the outdoor classroom. And on the way they just noticed, they just observe what's going on. So what are the things that attract the butterflies? What are the things that attract the bees, so that walk all the way up to the outdoor classroom is like a really valuable experience as well. So we go into the outdoor classroom and got a little bag each and they collect things that they're going to, they think might help with their research might help with their sort of final product, how they're going to encourage wildlife into into that space, are into the products that you want to design and make.

Alison Hardy: 9:54

And so you'll, by the sound of it will continue to use that space for the whole of that that unit of work. Is that right?

Sue Taplin: 10:00

Yeah, so sometimes we're in the workshop, sometimes we go outside, you've got to be quite spontaneous sometimes. Because, you know, there could have been a thunderstorm today. And then it wouldn't have been appropriate to take the students outside. But I think when you when you've got a school that gives you opportunity to work on school grounds, it really opens up this idea of, you know, not staying in the classroom, you don't have to do fancy trips that are in tropical places, you can just take them, you know, within a few seconds outside, but they can get the same affordances they can get the same benefits as going on a trip. You know, when we know there's been a lot of research about certain students or certain demographics that don't go out on trips anymore. But if we can open up our school grounds, then those same students can benefit from that. Yeah,

Alison Hardy: 10:48

if they haven't been sold off.

Sue Taplin: 10:50

Well, that's a whole nother stories is a whole other story. Let's

Alison Hardy: 10:53

open up that that can of worms. You just said something No, that kind of sparked me. What is the demographic of your school?

Sue Taplin: 11:03

Like, it's it's mixed? Yeah, we're in a leafy brushy we're really lucky in terms of our school grounds, we've got about 42 acres of space. Wow. Yeah. But, you know, we're, we're very lucky. But I can see that that's not always going to be the case. You know, there's lots of funding to have things like 3d pictures, 4g pictures, rather than actually maintaining the space, the green space that we have, which, you know, it's really frustrating, because why would we want to put, you know, an astroturf or whatever it is pitch on a beautiful natural space, which, you know, suffocates all the wildlife underneath and actually puts carcinogens into our our watercourse. But, you know, that's where the funding is. And that's a frustration.

Alison Hardy: 11:53

Yes, yes. So So you've kind of got so. So that whole thing about demographics and taken out into outdoor space, it's kind of it's kind of really crucial, I think, I think you're absolutely right, there's quite a lot of research isn't there about the benefits of school trips, taking children out of their sort of normal, everyday environment, and exposing them to different different experiences. So that kind of so if you've been talking about the fact, there's been a lot of research done, that kind of leads us quite nicely on to your research that and which is kind of the first conversation we had a few weeks ago. So you're doing an AD D, which is a professional doctorate. And and the last time we spoke, I wrote it down in my notes, you were doing place and nature connection at heart, Bucha University?

Sue Taplin: 12:35

That's right. That's it. That's exactly what I'm doing. I've just

Alison Hardy: 12:39

explained to us all what that means. So what

Sue Taplin: 12:42

does that mean? So place is, for me, it's our school grounds. And considering the unique things that make our school, in terms of the natural environment, what it is, right, and how those qualities, how those affordances can support the learning of our students. Right, and how it helps build community, how it makes things relevant. Yeah, and then the nature connection is really what I've been talking about already. And I think I've just had my registration document submitted, and I'll have my viva. And then since having that I've realised I'm sort of committing too much. And I think place might have to just take a bit of a pause for now. And I'm really going to focus on nature connection, because I think there's a real direct link with design and technology. No, I was just gonna say,

Alison Hardy: 13:46

Okay. So there's a couple of things. Firstly, can you define affordances?

Sue Taplin: 13:54

Yeah. So the affordances means the quality of a space in order or all the unique things within that space, that that offer something to the learning. So say, for example, I talked about the the, the pine tree and the sycamore that we'll be using the affordances of the space, but it doesn't just happen in diente. It could happen in history lessons in music lessons. So the affordances would also be about how it created a different environment, a different atmosphere. So the students could have different, almost different venues to work in as well.

Alison Hardy: 14:34

Right? Okay. Okay, so I've been reading a paper that's titled affordances of models and modelling a study of full technology design projects in the Swedish secondary school. And exactly title pays a bit, isn't it, but at least I kind of got an idea. It's about models and modelling. And so taking that idea about affordances, it's the benefits of models and modelling in the context of design and technology. So it's the benefits of that nature space, and what that brings and what it can bring to learning. Okay. Okay. So your study is now more focusing on the nature? Yes, connection, correct. Right. Is it primarily is in the context of design and technology or any subject.

Sue Taplin: 15:17

So my, my, my, my pilot study was on any subject, but I think through that, that experience, and sort of the learning I've got from that, is that sometimes I feel it's a bit too much to ask of people in terms of gaining research or getting my getting the data. And actually, I am not that knowledgeable on other people's subjects. And so I'm picking their specification and their programmes or study is not so easy for me, me to do. And so one of the sessions we did, people got out their curriculum and they were trying to work out ways in which they could use the affordances of our school grounds.

Alison Hardy: 15:57

And,

Sue Taplin: 15:58

and yeah, that worked that worked really well. But I sometimes feel that teachers feel just going outside is like enough is quite overwhelming to do something quite, quite different. You know, I've had one teacher where they actually, we're so worried they really wanted to go outdoors, but they were really worried about going outdoors. They were like, how's the seating plan gonna work? You know, how am I gonna get behaviour? How are they going to come back. And so we actually got all the students to carry their chairs up to the outdoor classroom, and he sat them in their seating plan, so that he felt he could still manage their behaviour, they will be in the seating plan. So that's the school policy. Yeah. And so it's a big step for some teachers. Yeah,

Alison Hardy: 16:46

yeah. Well, I'm just reading somebody's doctorate work at the moment, for an assessment of doing and they're talking about professional developments. Apologies advance to Matt, if I'm getting this wrong. It professional development. Courses, contradictions causes us to think about whether what we're being told to do is in contradiction to what we believe. And so, or what we've been indoctrinated to believe. So thinking about this teacher and the seating plans, yeah. Yeah, so you're kind of trying to get them to break down some of that. And I suppose one comfortable way of doing that is thinking Well, if that's what the teacher can cope with, and that's where it's at for them. Yeah, absolutely. Rather than undermining every part of their belief, got it system, or education, and you can't

Sue Taplin: 17:44

expect teachers, teachers that don't generally go outside, it's not in their interest, it's not something they do outside of school, to, to make them really understand the affordances of a place. I mean, that's, you can see why people don't want to go outside, if I'm asking that of them, because the thing is far too complex. Yeah, so I just want to break it down a bit and make it more inclusive.

Alison Hardy: 18:12

So that was your pilot study where you've worked with different teachers from different subjects? Yeah. So for your I wouldn't say actual study, but I don't mean it like that, you know, what I mean, your main study? Are you focusing on design and technology? Yeah,

Sue Taplin: 18:26

that's, that's where I'm at, at the moment, designer technology, I think, because, you know, I think it's really important time, there's lots of changes about to happen. And I know you've written about them, you know, it scares me, you know, the potential that could happen in design and technology. You know, design technology should be about I believe, anyway, it's about that the combination of, of skill and knowledge, you know, that's, that's the brilliant thing that design and technology brings body and mind and design, technology shouldn't have a dualistic approach, it should be every bringing everything together. And they're linked to nature that the the materials that we use are so important, hands on in the flow, working in the workshop, whether that's textiles, whether that's working with timbers, with papers, and boards, getting a sense of those materials, when you hold them in the hands, you know, when when you're cutting a piece of pine or a piece of manufactured board or a piece of oak? How does that feel? And what does that lead you? What decisions does that lead you to do? Because we're not gonna make pro environmental decisions. If we're sat on a computer. They're not, they're not going to be, they're not going to be embodied feelings. And you get those by being directly connected from something not an abstract experience, that's not going to lead to pro environmental decisions being made.

Alison Hardy: 19:55

So one of the underpinning aspects of this is about pro environmental decisions.

Sue Taplin: 20:04

I think for me, it's about how we treat the world, how we treat people, how we treat, so how we treat humans, how we treat them all in human. I think for me, it's more of a moral issue. And I think sometimes we can get a bit sidetracked if we focus on sustainability. Or, like you say, environmental decisions, I think it kind of sometimes can become like, a bit of an excuse or a bit other. So yeah, sometimes the word sustainability what does that actually mean? Is it just so humans can take more from the natural world?

Alison Hardy: 20:40

Oh, yes. Yeah, that's a good point. Good point.

Sue Taplin: 20:43

And it's not it's not just up for the taking. Because if we just take from nature, constantly, what we saying when people don't actually have a voice we just take from them.

Alison Hardy: 20:55

Yes, you So good point,

Sue Taplin: 20:58

where are we truly diverse? Unless we include the whole of the world? Or it's just some things, there's some people that can be part of this diversity?

Alison Hardy: 21:06

Well, it's some things and some people, isn't it? Really? You know, let's, let's be, let's be frank about that. Yeah. And it's not the it's not a bottomless pit, is it really sustain? Is does that mean you can live for longer? Or? Or does that mean, we coexist?

Sue Taplin: 21:21

Maybe it's just mine a different product. So maybe instead of getting cold, we just get lithium and then tell everyone it's, you know, a million substance? You know, that sort of thing that worries me? Yeah,

Alison Hardy: 21:34

yeah, it's been quite a few articles about that. But you said, you said something else there about my mind's gone blank. So I've just been looking for a book. Because you were talking about, you know, what education is, and you know, the way we live. And I've written about the aims of education, and Michael rice, and John White's believing in aims led education. And we were talking when we before we came on, and hit record in our 30 minute pre chat, which would have been five, talking about what we what the aim of education was went to the national curriculum. But they have two aims of education and their aims, led curriculum, and one is that education should enable the individual to have a flourishing life. And the second aim, is that that enables those people to help others have a flourishing life. And I really like I really like that I've not, I've not done much work on that I did write about it in my doctrine. I've written about it in a couple of places, since apparently, it comes from Aristotle, I've not, I've not read Aristotle. So I'm just saying what other people have told me. You know, but I do think that that is important about what we think. And I think when we're making decisions about what we're teaching, and where we're teaching, and what we're driven by, we have to think about what our fundamental beliefs are about what education is for and its purpose. And I think, you know, we were talking about before about this dualistic nature, and you've just mentioned it about knowledge and skills. You know, and people have heard me go on in podcast previously, why we're having theory lessons in DMT, because it is about the body, and embodied learning. And I've talked about how the back of the subjects that are in the subjects or out subjects, mineral or cognitive, a lot of the subjects are out involved involve the whole body and more of an embodied learning approach. And it's intense here, you use that, that that word embodied, that I don't think we kind of explore enough or know enough about, we rely on what's happening in other subjects, which are more cognitive, you know, subjects, you know, history, science, less so you could say, but they are more of the brain, rather than of the body. I can hear archaeologists and so on arguing against that, but you know, kind of where I'm going, but when

Sue Taplin: 23:58

we think back to a school context, yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Alison Hardy: 24:03

And that kind of separation of both is, is false. But thinking about what we believe to be our aims of education does then shape and this is kind of my values work shape, what we do in the classroom, what we take on board from the curriculum, to teach children and so I think your your work around challenging that, but it's not either or, it's really important, in fairness

Sue Taplin: 24:30

to the curriculum, the curriculum doesn't actually say that.

Alison Hardy: 24:32

No, it's just that interpretation. Yeah.

Sue Taplin: 24:36

It's actually what teachers are trying to do in the lesson, because

Alison Hardy: 24:40

it's also budget and resources. You know, and also, you know, we know that the ideology of government is much more classroom based deskspace textbook based, which takes away and denies that learning happens in ways other than just in the brain. So we have got an underpinning ideology that's coming from government as well that's around funding. And the and these two things are, are meeting in a way that is destructive? And removing the body and we could kind of say the same that that you know, leaning too much on AI does does the same? That's a cognitive rather than a psychomotor.

Sue Taplin: 25:22

Well, that's exactly what AI does. Doesn't everyone just become the human becomes less less human?

Alison Hardy: 25:29

Yes, yeah. And we don't have those debates about how technology intermediates how we see the world. I've done some stuff around. volition. So Mark DeVries writes about different ways of talking about technology, and one is about technologies, volition and how technology shapes how we behave as well as we behave, we shape how technology behaves, and So you could say, by going outside into an outside classroom, you're removing some of the more modern aspects of technology. But there is obviously still technology, you could say a flint is a form of technology.

Sue Taplin: 26:09

I think just as you go outside, you don't have to be anti technology.

Alison Hardy: 26:13

No. And it's also about how you define technology. I think that's what I'm trying to. Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

Sue Taplin: 26:18

So So what Heidegger would say, Heidegger would say that, you know, technology is all very, very well. But if it's technology that's void of nature, that's anti nature, then that's when problems start, you know, problems so much that you know, they lead to death.

Alison Hardy: 26:34

Right, so that's, that's really true. But you're gonna go Johnny, give us a little bit more about what that means. Because some people listening,

Sue Taplin: 26:41

I think that could be a whole whole nother whole nother podcast. But it's just this idea that technology is not the enemy. It's just how we use technology. Because technology is really, really useful. And we have like wondrous lives because of how technology has developed over the years. But it has to still incorporate, it cannot be anti nature, it has to incorporate that in order to aid life. So he would talk about he gives an example of a cabinet maker. And he just says that if we if we develop people that make things that don't understand the the connection that you have, with the material, then it's just busywork. It's just nonsense. And they won't, it won't have that same, it won't have that same use with, again, separating things out again. And and that's where that's where the problems with technology lead to or are. Yeah,

Alison Hardy: 27:44

it's also tell people who Heidegger is.

Sue Taplin: 27:46

So he's a German philosopher, who a bit controversial in terms of his politics. But even though he had controversial politics, unusually, he was against this sort of dualistic approach. Didn't nothing, nothing really make sense, really, when you look back at that, but so Heidegger wrote about being a book being in time, he wrote fundamental, fundamental writing, about technology. And that's why I got into him. I'm only at the start really, reading and understanding him, but it's, um, yeah, if you if you want to think about nature and technology, and how the two can combine, I think it would be a good start.

Alison Hardy: 28:33

A good start. So have you Have you read any of Siri? I mean, people listening to thinking where we're going with this conversation. I'm not quite sure what the right No, I'm not sure either. I mentioned Heidegger, I was gonna say, I think David Spendlove relates Heidegger but I think actually, it's victim Stein. Just just to throw another big, another philosopher into the mix. But have you looked at any of Steve Cole's work? As part if you've not yet you must look at Steve killed Steve, Steve and Mike Martin. Martin talks about values within technology. Steve talks about ethics and democracy has been a key underpinning part

Sue Taplin: 29:16

I want to bring up is Val Val plumwood Do you want to make on she's she's she's incredible i She she's got one of our papers is about stone using project. And she says a stone using project is best undertaken in the spirit of openness to what stones have to teach. And of the attending carefully to each stone is individual is so its individual individuality and its genre. Through such discipline of moral epistemology, we become both better wallbuilders and better recognising stones as prophets and Allah teachers. And it's that it's about understanding the material as a teacher, rather than just making something out of it, because you've been given that material at school. So you've been given a bit of MDF, so therefore you make whatever it is out of MDF, but it's about experiencing the stone or experiencing the timber in all its different forms. That that, that that that that pass on that knowledge or allow you to have embodied knowledge.

Alison Hardy: 30:25

Right, so you kind of slightly blew my head off from Oh, sorry. It's fine. I'm quite happy

Sue Taplin: 30:31

wild imaginings.

Alison Hardy: 30:32

Also you're doing a doctorate you're kind of reading stuff that's making me really excited to get I can see a connection and I bet you're gonna put all this literature in into every part of your doctorate. Kind of rein it back a bit. You have to quote that quote, If you could type that and give me a link to read the whole thing, but yeah, but I think I'll put it in the show notes obviously credit all properly and then people who are listening to that content, I just need to go and read that again, because I didn't quite follow. But I get this idea around. I mean, I think there are times in design and technology when we do just give children the material, because that's not the learning the learning isn't about the material. The learning is about process, for example. And other times we do focus on the material, its origins, what it what it means in terms of economic, technologically, environmentally, its impact, and so on. So I do think there's a balance. I don't think it's again, it's not either, or is it?

Sue Taplin: 31:31

Absolutely not Allison, but it's

Alison Hardy: 31:35

being aware, isn't it of when, when we're doing one bid, and that means we're not doing another bid or another aspect and people can't see the video, but I'm actually not doing either or I'm kind of doing different sides of a hexagon, possibly.

Sue Taplin: 31:48

Fish little fish cardboard box.

Alison Hardy: 31:50

Oh, I guess new what's me? Is that nursery rhyme? I don't know. I don't have any children. So

Sue Taplin: 31:57

I think it might be people that were clapping in the 90s.

Alison Hardy: 32:00

Right. Okay. All right. Children, before we started, we were comparing your little boy talking about your little boy, my dog. Okay, yeah, had thought might do a whole podcast with him without me mentioning kick. But anyway, and I have noticed him wandering backwards and forwards in the background as well. But anyway, but kind of digress.

Sue Taplin: 32:19

I was trying to get up. It was about Yeah, it's, it's about being in the flow in the workshop, rather than being void of materials and void of nature being like, in another place, and on, you know, particular on a computer screen. I just don't believe that's the way in which design technology should go. I think it's got a place in it. But it doesn't have to be all or nothing.

Alison Hardy: 32:48

Yes. Yeah. And it's that is kind of what it is sometimes is there's opposite ends of a spectrum, aren't there? It's kind of like we're polarised rather than seeing it's like a continuum.

Sue Taplin: 33:00

Yeah, absolutely. Really. Yeah, I think there's a lot of people that have got, the people are being heard the voices that are being listened to, we've got this idea that the the computers are going to save all, you know, you know, I heard somebody say that we've got to do on computers, because if we use materials, that's having a really negative impact on the environment. Well, is it as simple as that? I'm not sure it is. Because?

Alison Hardy: 33:26

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I've heard those arguments as well. And I think it's a silly slippery slope. It's not it's not either or, again, it's a mix. And

Sue Taplin: 33:35

I think that's where the curriculum gets into trouble, or not the curriculum, people's interpretation of the curriculum. I think that's where we get into trouble, where we think it's just one thing.

Alison Hardy: 33:46

Yes. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. It is about teachers having that awareness, isn't it about what they believe education is for what they believe the nature of design and technology is, you know, where their values have an impact on all of that, on those on those decisions on where what they believe is in contradiction to what other people in their departments so that people are listened to. And so we can have these debates. You know, there'll be some people listening who won't agree with me or you at all, I mean, they're wrong. But I. Anyway, to pull this back, so I'm constantly talking for quite a while. What should we search question then for you ready?

Sue Taplin: 34:28

Well, it's changing all the time.

Alison Hardy: 34:29

Don't give me that to tell me what the current research question is.

Sue Taplin: 34:32

Okay. So to what extent are teachers committed to including nature connection in lessons?

Alison Hardy: 34:39

And is that a case study on design and technology?

Sue Taplin: 34:43

Correct? Right, that's exactly what I'm going to be doing. So that's why I said at the moment, because this idea of really focusing on design and technology is really happened since since my Viva and after doing this pilot study with a pilot study is not finished yet. I'm only meant to be starting it. But I've already collected quite a lot of data. So I can sort of see the the direction it's going in.

Alison Hardy: 35:05

Yeah. So see, so So what your pilot studies have to realise is that the complexity of doing it across several subjects, yeah, is beyond the scope, because we've kind of think, oh, you know, any research project kind of solves everything. That's kind of where we all start. And then you're narrowing it down to like, gives you a case study within design and technology, which could then be replicated across other subjects.

Sue Taplin: 35:28

Yeah, oh, or other schools or because design and technology is where my passion is designing technologies, the subject that I just has, has so much importance on young people, like creativity is so important. And yeah, and that's where my, my, my sort of my experiences in so So,

Alison Hardy: 35:50

again, your research question

Sue Taplin: 35:52

is this way you're gonna pick it apart and yeah, I'm looking forward to this bit.

Alison Hardy: 35:56

Hey. I got your

Sue Taplin: 36:00

number Allison. Right. To what extent are teachers committed to including nature connection in lessons?

Alison Hardy: 36:08

So your participants are the teachers?

Sue Taplin: 36:11

My Yeah, correct. My participants are the teachers. And I've talked about this at length as well, because, you know, student voice is so so very important to me. But I just think at this stage, it's about teachers and how we can because it's all very well, and we go into the students, but if we haven't got anything in place in the first instance, yeah. How are they going to talk about nature connection when they don't really know what that is? For some?

Alison Hardy: 36:36

Yeah. So so what you're doing, you're doing an analysis of what is currently in place, or are you helping teachers to think about doing something in their practice?

Sue Taplin: 36:46

Yeah, it's about

Alison Hardy: 36:47

which one, which one of those

Sue Taplin: 36:51

is about CPD. And so I would like to make a change.

Alison Hardy: 36:55

So it's a what I would call we're not what I would call I forget which book it's in Robert, COEs book. It's a manipulative study, you're trying to change something in this during the study, yeah, during the study, so you're not observing it on the change.

Sue Taplin: 37:12

So no, not observing trends. So I how the pilot studies run is that I've I've had a series of CBD oil coming

Alison Hardy: 37:20

to the end of the podcast episode recording, didn't you? And

Sue Taplin: 37:23

I was hoping we talk will not actually go into the swing of it now that feed

Alison Hardy: 37:27

the dog. Gary, Gary.

Sue Taplin: 37:32

So it's about I guess it's about empowering staff so that they feel confident about going outdoors, so they understand where their curriculum may fit fit in with nature connection. And what I'm what their school grounds look like, or what their immediate outdoor places look like. But nature connection doesn't just happen outdoors, actually, it can happen indoors as well. So it's yeah, so.

Alison Hardy: 38:00

So you're just doing this in one school or several schools,

Sue Taplin: 38:03

well, other elements in one school, but I think it would be good to make connections with other schools. So

Alison Hardy: 38:09

you're going to do some professional development to help teachers think about it. And then they're going to go away and modify a unit of work maybe or some lessons, and then they're going to come back and give you some feedback. And they might do that as part of a reflective journal, a diary photographs.

Sue Taplin: 38:22

So that's how it's working at the moment, teachers are doing a series of field notes, which they share with me. And then I will analyse those, those field notes. Actually, it's funny, you talk about photography, because when I was on my MSc i to Palo Frary, which I'll put in the link as well. But he talks a lot about community projects, and how you can use photography to go out into the compute community to show what that looks like. And then in order to make a change. And so I asked teachers to take a lesson indoors and take a listen outdoors. And one student within the class would record or take a photograph every five minutes, right of each each lesson. And then we put the photographs side by side. And it just started a conversation. Yeah. And I started a conversation with the teacher. And they became really reflective about their practice and some of the things that you know, we're asked to do as teachers and and what the real impact is on the students. Yeah.

Alison Hardy: 39:24

So. So a couple of things. Have you looked at Helen Keller's work? Creative research methods, show me the books I have. Excellent, excellent. You know, she's running a conference, don't

Sue Taplin: 39:34

you? Know, a day but I'd like to attend? Yeah.

Alison Hardy: 39:38

You find her on Twitter or we find a website and kara.co.uk. I think I'll put a link in the show notes. But then you also mentioned the impact on the children. Take a look at that.

Sue Taplin: 39:57

Yes, I'm very mindful that I, I, I do get overexcited about things. So I have to make sure that I don't try to include too much. But the the I don't know if you've noticed that. Yeah. But yeah. So the How am I going to measure the impact of the students? Well, I mean, that could be simply as a survey at the start of the module, and I'm one of the

Alison Hardy: 40:23

whatsoever with the children. Yeah, yeah. But I thought you weren't gonna listen to people.

Sue Taplin: 40:29

No, you just asked me about.

Alison Hardy: 40:32

No, no, no, no, I asked you.

Sue Taplin: 40:35

Sorry, I misunderstood your question.

Alison Hardy: 40:39

Listening properly, you're answering the question that you wanted me to ask you rather than the question I'd ask you, which is sorry, anybody who's been my student who is listening will go this is exactly how she isn't a tutorial.

Sue Taplin: 40:55

We need you to

Alison Hardy: 40:59

So yeah, impact. How will you measure the impact? What do you see impact as being? Because you, you what you've narrowed it straight down to is, but do a survey with the children, which were a few minutes ago, you'd ruled out anything to do with the Children's voice, because impact doesn't have to be the children's voice. It could be looking at the children's work.

Sue Taplin: 41:22

Exactly. Sorry, my brain didn't kick in.

Alison Hardy: 41:25

And it was a trick. And I tripped you up deliberately to make myself look good. That's what I'm about.

Sue Taplin: 41:32

In all fairness, you did warn me at the start, that would happen. So it'd be all about

Alison Hardy: 41:35

me. Yeah.

Sue Taplin: 41:39

Yeah, so we can look at the student's work. And in particularly in diente, we can look at the decisions that they make, you know, how does that and I say prime environmental, but I only say that in terms of sort of the inclusivity of who we who we listen to. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Who's been included?

Alison Hardy: 41:59

Yeah. And others. And if we're not careful, it's it's back to that dualistic. So again, going back to Matt Woodford, who's a mass ITA, teacher educator at my place, who's setting part of his PhD. At tomorrow, so people know, Matt will know when I'm doing this then. So Matt, is looking at professional development in the context of maths. And he says, there's quite a housey talk about it. That it's about professional development is seen, generally as being to change student outcomes by changing teachers, which is kind of what what you what it could be seen that you're trying to do. And he says, again, that this slide with this word, we keep using this a dualistic philosophy that praises the student outcomes as the aim of professional development, and thereby does quoting Matt dehumanises teachers into the input of a binary blackbox approach. And he calls it pedagogic, pedagogic oppression, I'll put a link in the show notes to to Matt's paper. It's absolutely brilliant. That he's done on this. Actor Paulo Ferreira again, yeah, it is it is. So his professional development has been really interesting. And I might ask him, if I can share some of that with you. Because he's talking about helping, helping, helping the teacher see, when you're introducing a new professional development or new pedagogy that may well have contradictions within them about and again, forgive me, Matt, if I'm misinterpreting your work or poorly representing it may have conflicts within them about their belief systems about what education is for what their role is, as a teacher, and so on. And so when we have these directives from government and from different national organisations, which I won't name, anyone in particular, that have a particular view of what teaching is, and these are very heavily promoted in a particular range of books for a particular publisher, and but they're seen as the way because there's no opportunity for teachers to debate and question how it sits within them. So yes, again, this dualistic approach, teachers are being taught something that will make a difference to student outcomes. That's why it's kind of slightly tongue in cheek about the impact. Because to an extent, why would you be doing something with teachers if it wasn't gonna make a difference to what students outcomes were, but we have to first we'll have a discussion maybe about, what do we see as the right student outcomes? I mean, some people say it's about GCSE results. But back to what we see the aim of education is, anyway. So that's a huge conversation there. But hopefully, that's hoping I might be blown your head off there, as you have several times this conversation. Now, I think I think you're doing Brilliant stuff. So I think absolutely fantastic. I mean, you're making me think about this dualistic thing that happens all over, you know, body mind, inside outside, into the teachers output from the pupils, you know, knowledge, skills, vocation academic would even touch on that one. Let's not go there. At this point. We had a whole conversation before we press record, don't worry about that. But I think yeah, I think thinking about trying to bring about change is also then thinking about Baptists word about impact about well, what's the change that you're hoping to bring about in the teachers? And are you wanting to bring anything in about the way that children see the world or see technology? That's kind of would make more sense to me about impact?

Sue Taplin: 45:47

That's the ultimate goal.

Alison Hardy: 45:49

Yeah. Okay. Okay, well, I think we're kind of what I've taught for the last bit. So that's all Right then I shared my opinion. That's all that matters at the end of the day, my podcast back to me, love to listen back to recording and think about how many times I mentioned my research. I'm not quite sure I got it enough people can play Alison Hardy. One more time. Maybe offering support. I won't

Sue Taplin: 46:20

say so much, Allison.

Alison Hardy: 46:21

No, it's been great. It's been great. And you've it's been a great conversation, people won't know. But we had a half hour conversation beforehand. oversharing on all sorts of things. Great fun. Really good. It's good to see you laughing and and it's good to have this opportunity to laugh as well and talk about design technology, in a way so that I have to say, I'd never thought of before. So you've really challenged my thinking. So that's great. I like having my make people making my brain hurt. Right. It's been great. Enjoy that too. Good. Good. And hopefully you'll come back. And I'd love your game. Of course, of course you would. That goes without saying, and why wouldn't you? Hopefully you're going to put a poster in for the pack conference.

Sue Taplin: 47:04

Yes, I've seen emails. And yeah, one or two things going on at the moment. But soon as they brought to a close, I will be right on it.

Alison Hardy: 47:14

Excellent. Excellent. And if you want any help, then I suggest you reach out to Sarah Davis and Matt McLean. I'm too busy. It's been brill. It's been built. I do think you need to share your work, which we talked about last time. So thanks so much. Soon, hopefully will come back and give us an update in about a year's time about where you're at and what you're doing with it.

Sue Taplin: 47:32

Oh, that'd be great. That would be super cool. Thank you so much.

Alison Hardy: 47:35

Pleasure. Absolute pleasure. It's been a joy. Well, fantastic. That was good. That was just what I needed. Actually. Just what I needed.