TD&T131 Writing a debate about D&T

This episode is unusual in that there is also a video that goes alongside it where you can see me and Ciaran talking as I am live editing his debate that he's submitted as an example of a response to one of the contentious questions.

Link to the video:  https://youtu.be/QrBNYNC7fo8

Episode transcript

Mentioned in this episode:

Link to the video: https://youtu.be/QrBNYNC7fo8

Find out more about the project and how to get involved:

Guidance for responding: 'Have Your Say'

18 questions 

How to respond to the questions:  use this link to upload your responses: https://ntupsychology.eu.qualtrics.com/jfe/form/SV_e3uA5bBcRdmPD5s

Ciaran Ellis posted a thought-provoking question on LinkedIn recently: Do design decisions involve value judgements?

What do you think? Join the conversation over on LinkedIn and let us know what you think. 

Transcript

Alison: 0:57

Find out how you can write a debate and what happens after you've submitted it. You're listening to The Talking D& T Podcast. I'm Dr. Alison Hardy, a writer, researcher, and advocate of design and technology education. In each episode, I share views, news, and opinions about D& T. This episode is unusual in that there is also a video that goes alongside it where you can see me and Kieran talking and I'm live editing his debate that he's submitted. as an example of a response to one of the contentious questions. So there's a link in the show notes to where you can see that video. Otherwise, just enjoy the listen as we maybe talk quite abstractly for you, if you're listening on the audio, about how to write and contribute to the debates about redesigning D& T. Right, so we're here, aren't we, to try and give an example of how to write one of these debates. You've had a go, haven't you? You've written one. Yep. So do you want to explain which one you've, you've written?

Ciaran: 2:00

So I wrote about, is design technology a vocational subject? Um, which I thought was actually, although it's number one on the list, I actually found, for me, one of the most interesting, because for many years I probably argued that it was. Um, or at least Key Stage 4 subjects

Alison: 2:17

were. Right, yeah, yeah. So you've taken a different viewpoint now, have you? I think,

Ciaran: 2:27

yeah, I have a different viewpoint now. Um, I definitely have a different viewpoint now. And I think that's come from just being a bit more open in terms of my understanding, I think, of What DT I think actually brings to students rather than just a single set of job skills,

Alison: 2:46

right? Okay. Okay. So you took you chose that one So should I share the screen then we can people can see what what it is that you've written then you can have a chat About how you went about writing this. It's okay What I'm gonna do is I'm just gonna reject all the changes because that was me playing around with your version So, can you see that clearly?

Ciaran: 3:08

Yeah, it's okay Yeah, that's better.

Alison: 3:13

Right. So tell us how you started this then.

Ciaran: 3:17

Um, now I know I don't have a traditional, uh, way of starting to write. I like to read and as I read I write sentences or short paragraphs and then I join them all together. Okay. So each kind of paragraph was a different thought process. that I had.

Alison: 3:33

Right. Okay. Okay. So, so were you doing some reading when you were writing this then? Um, well,

Ciaran: 3:40

I read the, uh, when I was looking at the questions, I went straight to looking for some reports that I'd read about the sort of link DT to vocational education, vocational subjects, um, previously that I'd done to kind of support why. DT in previous schools needed better investment.

Alison: 4:01

Right. Okay. Okay. So how did, so you, so, so go on, tell us, talk us through a little bit about what you've got here then and what you've, what you've suggested. Um,

Ciaran: 4:11

so kind of what I went with was that I actually truly believe that design technology is not a vocational subject. And especially when we're looking at between the key stages one and three, that it has a much broader skill set. knowledge base to offer than just for a particular line of jobs. I think that it encourages people to take and apply knowledge. Um, Whilst I'm not saying you have to have knowledge to design, I think it does allow you to take knowledge that you have from various subjects and apply it to various different contexts.

Alison: 4:50

I, I, I really want to unpick that whole comment that you've just said. I know that's not why we're not, not why we're here. It's because you could see my face react, couldn't you? You know, when you said you don't have to have knowledge to design. Do you want to, do you want to, I'm going to offer a tangent. Right, you know how I do this. Go on, tell me a little bit more about that.

Ciaran: 5:11

So, I think to design well, you need to be able to acquire knowledge for designing, but I don't think you necessarily need the prior knowledge to be a designer. So, I can, if I need to do a project, I can go away having not got that knowledge, have the skill to research it and acquire it to apply it to that context. Right. But I don't think I need to be an expert in a subject to be able to design for it.

Alison: 5:48

Okay. So you're saying you don't need the context specific knowledge. Yeah. I think so. Right. Okay. Okay. That's why, that's kind of why. Right. Okay. That's the whole of the podcast. That's

Ciaran: 6:02

my bad wording, I

Alison: 6:03

think. No, no, no. It is only, what, 10 o'clock on a Monday morning. Um. So, you know, I do get that. I do get that. That's fine. That's fine. And you know me now well enough, Ciarán, that if you say something that I can't think of, I want to go off down that track, that I'm going to go down there, whether you're ready for it or not. Right, okay, so let's go back to, to what you've written here. So you've, you've sort of, this is like a thought stream, what you've written here then. Yeah, very much so. Did you go back and edit it at all?

Ciaran: 6:32

I gave it a very quick read, planned to do a lot more to it and then realised that I'd said I'd send this about two days earlier than I did and thought, quick, I'd better send it across.

Alison: 6:41

Right, okay. Okay, so yeah, the usual kind of, um, sort of Classmanit. com Yeah, no, it's okay. I had to write an abstract for a book chapter, um Yeah, I had to write that very quickly, shall we say. Um, so, and, and how did you feel about the idea of going back and editing it?

Ciaran: 7:02

Honestly, it's not something I know I'm good at. Um, we have a little bit of a pact in our house. I say things, my wife types and edits them, and if it's my thing she does that, and if it's her thing we kind of do the same. Right, okay. Um, I normally would get her to go over it and make it sound better.

Alison: 7:25

Different, different. Yeah, yeah. So, so your reaction to Editing is kind of quite normal. Do you know what I mean? I know that if I write something, I find it quite painful to go back and have to edit it. It's particularly painful if I had to submit it somewhere and then it comes back with comments about editing. That, I find that, yeah, it can take me weeks to actually open that email properly, um, to look at it. So, we kind of thought it would be useful, wouldn't it, if people who are Wanting to put something into this debate, but don't know how to we kind of share yours So the way you've talked about how you've planned it and thought about it and written it I think it's really useful and then I kind of want to give a little bit of insight into how I might edit it Um, so that it's kind of for its readability basically, and, and its accessibility. So, um, and there's a couple of things on what you've written, Kieran, that I wanna pick out that I, that I really liked. So when I'm editing, um, I automatically put on track changes and show comments because then I can do stuff. And so obviously I've edited a couple of books. So I kind of got a bit of a technique so what I, what I like, really like about what you've done here is that you've put very clearly right at the beginning your answer to the question. I really, I really like that because I think that's so easy for people to do is to, to not actually say. What they think about the question, whether they agree or whether they disagree. And I also like, um, the way you've done that again at the bottom. People might notice that I've kind of got lots of dots and little markers. I always put the, the format markers on so I can see where I've got returns and, and search for, for formatting. That's kind of my thing. So, um, So I'm going to kind of go through and talk through what I think could maybe just sort of tighten it up a little bit. So I'm just going to put a return in here. So you start here by a short no. So I'm actually going to change that to a comma. So people don't worry about whether you're any good at grammar or punctuation, just write it. We'll edit it and we'll send it back to you and you can agree or disagree and I'll show you how we We'll send those back to you for your feedback You don't have to agree with any of the edits that's made and Kieran can kind of go, no, I don't really agree with that. Um, so design and technology is not a vocational subject. This is something else that I get people to do is to read it out loud which is always really painful. Um, it does not define a career path, does not prioritise a particular career or set of knowledge for a particular career, nor, I'm going to put a comma in there, does it limit students to a particular job, role or vocation. So what I really like here about this opening kind of mini paragraph is again you're restating what the whole focus of your answer is and then you list. What it does not do, right? That you believe design and technology does not define a career path. It does not prioritize. It does not create a set of knowledge for a particular career. Nor does it, and I really like this bit, nor does it limit students to a particular job role or vocation. So I really like the way that you're actually turning it around by saying, if it is a vocational subject, then actually kind of what we're saying is that this subject is, is, is channeling students in that direction. And so that's. It's limiting in a way, um, without you all saying that it's the opposite of that. So I think that's a really nice strong opening sentence. So just people who are watching or listening to this, just be aware, Kieran sent this to me, that we had no prior discussion, okay? So if it's good, it's genuinely good in my opinion. Do you know what I mean? This isn't me kind of actually praising my own edits. So, um, I'm gonna change that to at least stages one to three, partly because, um, The first time that appears in the book then I'll change it to brackets KS, but at the moment we don't know and to kind of be confident that readers understand what we're talking about. Now, so we've got to be clear about here, are we talking about design capital T, capital D, or are we talking about lowercase, so you've got a whole thing here going on. So what I might do is if I put the navigation page on, this is the other thing that I do is I might find design and technology and change it to design and technology. And I might make sure it doesn't do that. And then we get to replace it. So I kind of know that I've got a consistency in the language. This is, this sounds like I'm being really fussy. I am really fussy. But actually. When you get those things consistent, it makes it much easier for a reader. Because then they're confident that you are talking about the same thing throughout, if that makes sense. So, um, Key Stage is one to three. So we could be really picky and go, we could go to three. Design and technology offers students a chance to apply their knowledge and learning to different scenarios. It also allows students to develop a set of skills to analyze, problem solve, and redefine a solution to a problem. Thank you. Okay, so it seems okay. So it's all about this like this general the scenarios and general set of skills. Design and technology is a part of general education offers students a chance to apply their learning. So there's a bit of repetition going on there. Um. But I'm going to, what I'm going to do is I'm just going to put a comment in. Okay, so if I just, um, reduce the screen size, the size, so you can see that comments come up there. Um, so basically what I'm saying is I'm leaving that for you to, to edit and decide on. Um, cause what I'm really conscious of is I don't want to take away from your voice. So this, this is. And I presume there's meant to be an I believe. I think so, yeah. And we've got then two is's, because I'm going to put a comma after the believe. Just one, I'm going to make this bigger again so people can see what I'm doing. Let's take the navigation page off. Um, just one underrepresented I'm not sure I'd bother changing it to that. That feels like an American value of design and technology. The example I like to use is marketing and promotion. And then I start to think, Oh, we're into a different thing here. So I kind of feel like that needs expanding. So I'm going to put another comment because, and you can do because you've only used 491 words. So you've got, you've got space to add more. Um, and then I'm going to, I'm going to just change that. This is a job that has a heavy reliance on being able to convey meaning and evoke emotion often through words. I'm going to put a comment because it feels like a comment should be there. So. Is this, and I'm going to put another comment, what's this? I'm a little bit confused about what the this is. Um, the domain of an English lesson. And again, you've kind of got a lot of this is. This does not convey the creativity needed to develop the marketing material, nor does it account for the skills needed in various design programs. It is the application of the knowledge, which brings value to the knowledge of being able to write with fluency. See, I just kind of feel like that whole paragraph just needs a little bit of Fleshing out to build on your example up here. So in this paragraph here, you've got these general skills, which you are saying are relevant to different scenarios. You're using design skills and creativity. And then in this third part of this paragraph here, you kind of give an example. It just needs a bit more fleshing out is what I would suggest. I am not trying to convince anyone or myself that design technology cannot lead, encourage or prepare students, vocational students. I'm not kind of quite sure how it fits there. So I'm just going to put another comment and just put word choice on that because I'm not quite sure that's the right word. However, it is not something we can set our stall out by. And I'm going to go, why not? Right, because it's just about giving a little bit more detail. Despite growing calls by industry that students do not have the right skills to enter the workplace, or a general shortage of skilled workers in the engineering construction sector, this is design and technology. At its core, it's about more than this narrow set of jobs. Right, I'm actually going to be bold here and move that whole paragraph to there. Because it kind of follows on. Does that make sense? At Key Stage 4, I believe it is possible to argue that certain subjects can offer or prepare a student's figure. However, isn't this the point of students choosing their options? Question mark. Does not. Choosing health and social care offer both

Ciaran: 17:38

got lots of knots in that sentence.

Alison: 17:43

All right, if you're going to put these and you've got to put the references at the end.

Ciaran: 17:46

Yes, I did. I thought about that literally as soon as I'd sent me, like I should have referenced them properly.

Alison: 17:53

Or the other way of doing it, just don't reference them. That's my cop out sometimes is, Oh, I can't be bothered. So just take the references out. Right. You know, you can just put it's often been reported that it's not an academic piece of work, you know, um, so yeah, to identify that STEM employers believe in technology. So I really like here is actually you're sort of standing on the other side and saying there's lots of, you know, there are these people and you might want to put a quote and you might want to get something from one of those that put a spotlight on D& T that argue that D& T is vocational, but then you kind of unpick a little bit about, you know, Why? That's about Key Stage 4, not about general education where all children are studying it. You like your howevers, don't you? Possibly, yeah. So the other thing that I do, if I start to kind of get a sense that somebody's using the same word, I go to the navigation. Yeah, three times. So three times in 450 words is, to me, it's 500, it's kind of quite a lot, because it starts to pop out because you're starting your sentence. So if I just accept that change, and then if I look up Cinnamon, you know, there's other words that you could use though, but yeah, it's still, anyway, however, so again, you're coming back to that original point about it being a broad, and I'm going to put in here, um, general curriculum to study to student is to allow them to develop a broad range. I'm, I'm going to be picky here I'd say. Is that

Ciaran: 19:40

too repetitive? Am I just repeating that from the first paragraph?

Alison: 19:44

Well possibly because it's a summary though. Yeah. Do you know what I mean? It's your end. And I think if you expand on this example, clarify this a bit, deal with some of the repetition here and give a little bit more. detail, another, do you mean? Then I think that's okay. Does that make sense? And you've got to be consistent about whether you mean broad or general. I don't think you've, because you've obviously got a thing, haven't you? That it's about the scenarios are really important. Yes. So that you might want to put a little bit, just a little thing in a bracket or something that says, This is why, you know, this is what I mean by a scenario. Does that make sense? Yeah, it is really, I mean you have got another 250 words and there are some things that I think might come out To put them back in. I mean, I'm thinking as I'm recording this, I'm thinking blimey some people can be watching this and going Gordon Bennett, I thought she was meant to be helping us write this and now she's actually saying she's going to send it back to this poor fella with all these edit comments. Well, how do you feel about, go

Ciaran: 21:11

on. For me, who, I'm actively trying to put myself out there a bit more, I'm trying to write more, I'm trying to be a little bit more open to current literature and knowledge. I, I find this really useful for actually thinking about how, how I, myself, actually, as a teacher and an educator. Yeah. Aspiring writer, I guess.

Alison: 21:35

Yeah. So yeah. Oh, aspiring writer. I like that. I like that. Um, yeah, I think, I think for those people who do get involved, I do think there is an issue in design and technology because I know what, well, I'm going to speak from my own experience. You know, I started in academia 13 years ago. I've done my master's before then, it doesn't come naturally to write. You know, it's not something that we, we do in design and technology, but we do need to articulate our perspectives. And I suppose for people who do decide to take part in this, then what they can do is learn from this process. It's helping you, as you say, it's helping you articulate. So when you go and have a conversation with a senior leader, who is more than likely going to come from the humanities, because they all seem to come from there. which suggests to me that they don't like their subjects as much as D& T teachers do. Um, you know, they, they have much more of a history and a grounding in their subjects of writing and debating and such, whereas we don't in design and technology through, you know, the oral word or the written word. We might do it through drawings and models and artifacts and such. So, yeah, so anybody who's taking part just kind of see this as a tutorial. You know, that it's helping you get better at articulating your perspectives, which will become useful for what you're doing. And I, and I really want people in design technology to write, so that's why I put my face lit up when you said you were an aspiring writer. To me, you're a writer, Keira. Do you write. You know, you've written a paper with us, you've done this, you're doing quite a lot of writing along the way on this project. You're writing, so yeah. So the next thing that I will do, is I would then save this, um, if I go into my online locations, this is organise my file systems. Projects, I'm hoping, I'm hoping there it is. Okay, there you go, Alice Responses. So I would actually put on here, call this a tracked changes copy. And then I will save it again as a clean copy. So I would on this version, I will accept all the changes and stop tracking. So what I will do is I will send you the two copies. So you can read the clean copy. Okay, without any of the track changes, but with just the comments on, and then you can see the track changes copy and you can say, well, I don't really like the way she's changed that or whatever. Um, and then you would, you would send another version back to me. That's how it works. So that's, that's what I do when I'm editing. Thank you very much. That's all right. That's all right. So do you want to share any last minute tips to anybody who might be listening to this and thinking about writing?

Ciaran: 24:33

Um, I think the first thing I'd say is that you've got nothing to lose by giving it a go. Um, at this point, this is Really about getting teachers to have a say and teachers to have a voice, and it's not often we're given a chance to do that, um, often policy and specifications are written with consultation of certain teachers, um, that might agree with a particular view. This is completely open to everyone. Everyone who's currently a teacher gets a chance to have a say. Um, and for me, I think that's an opportunity that we can't really pass by.

Alison: 25:07

No. Yeah, that's, that's key. And I've got a meeting on the 18th of December with, uh, the DfE. They're interested in me sharing what teachers are saying. I've said that I'll do that anonymously. Obviously, anything that goes in the book will have names attached. But at the moment, as we're filtering through, so people get their thoughts in before then, and they, they'll be edited. There's a whole process. This is going to take another few months, then, then, then get those in. I think, I think that the key thing for me, and I'm hoping that people realize that as I was editing, um, Kieran's, I wasn't changing the content. I wasn't changing the message. I'm hoping that came across because it's not about me imposing and I was desperate to question some of the things that you were saying. Um, but that's not what my role is as an editor. Okay. So, um, and hopefully over time yourself, Kira and Amanda and Andy will also gain some of that editing. Um, and kind of get those skills as well. Um, so you see, it's not just writing, it's, it's editing too. So, um, yeah, so thanks very much for sharing that. I'll be sharing with the DfE. We'll get this uploaded on as a podcast. And, uh, the first ever, what is it, a vidcast? A vidpo I don't know what it is. What's the word? I don't know. No idea. Crikey, I'm 53 and I've got no idea what these words are anymore. Brains addled. Right. Okay. Thanks ever so much, Kieran. I'm Dr. Alison Hardy, and you've been listening to The Talking D& T Podcast. If you enjoyed the podcast, then do subscribe on whatever platform you use, and do consider leaving a review, as it does help others find the podcast. I do the podcast because I want to support the D& T community in developing their practice, so please do share the podcast with your D& T community. If you want to respond to something I've talked about, or have an idea for a future episode, then either leave me a voice memo via Speakpipe, or drop me an email. You can find details about me, the podcast, and how to connect with me on my website, Dr. Allison hardy.com. Also, if you want to support the podcast financially, you can become a patron. Links to SpeakPipe Patron and my website are in the show notes. Thanks for listening.