From Abstract to Applause in Academic Conferences: Talking with Dr Sarah Davies

Are you a D&T teacher or researcher navigating the complex world of academic writing and conferences?

Unlock the mysteries of academic publishing as I sit down with Sarah Davies, the  editor-in-chief of the PATT40 conference. This week's episode explores the layers of the paper submission process, offering a comprehensive look at the journey from abstract to publication. We dissect the peer review system, emphasising its crucial role in fostering equality, diversity, and inclusion. If you're interested in what happens when you submit a paper, tune in to gain a deeper understanding of the supportive framework that upholds the integrity of educational research, and the collaborative efforts that ensure a manageable flow of contributions .

Concluding with a nod to the power of research, we examine the themes that came from the PATT40 conference: teaching methods, curriculum design, and assessment strategies , with a special focus on how D&T classroom studies can influence broader educational conversations

 In our conversation, Sarah reveals the confidence and empowerment that arise when teachers actively participate in research, arming them with the tools to challenge conventional wisdom and advocate for subject-specific teaching approaches. This episode is a testament to the collective wisdom of the D&T teaching community and a "how-to" for those poised to make a difference through their research.

(Text generated by AI, edited, a little, by Alison Hardy)

Links
Home - Camtree website supporting close-to-practice research for  teachers
Researching D&T website
Masculinities and Femininities in the Design and Technology Classroom
Promoting Creativity in the Secondary Design and Technology Classroom in England

Find Sarah
Threads 

LinkedIn 

Ciaran Ellis posted a thought-provoking question on LinkedIn recently: Do design decisions involve value judgements?

What do you think? Join the conversation over on LinkedIn and let us know what you think. 

Transcript

Alison Hardy: 1:00

You're listening to the Talking D&T podcast. I'm Dr Alison Hardy, a writer, researcher and advocate of design and technology education. In each episode, I share views, news and opinions about D&T. This week, it's another episode in the PAP40 series, where I'm talking to people who were involved in the creation, organisation or attended or presented at the PATT40 conference that was held in Liverpool in October November 2023. And there'll be links in the show notes to all the details about the conference. This week, I'm with Sarah Davis. Sarah has been on the podcast twice before and one of the previous podcasts that we did together is one of the most popular downloads. It's all about teacher agency and how D&T teachers manage change. Actually, sarah, that's your most popular one, the one you've done with me.

Sarah Davies: 1:53

You're good, yeah, so hopefully we're trying to beat that today. Oh well you never know, you never know.

Alison Hardy: 1:59

So Sarah's on, because she was the editor-in-chief of the PAP40 conference. So can we start, sarah, by explaining what that means.

Sarah Davies: 2:08

Yeah, sure, Because, yeah, it's a very fancy title, isn't it?

Sarah Davies: 2:12

But it means that I sort of oversaw the papers that were put into what's the better word in either word Submitted, it was submitted to the conference, and I was thinking about this that probably the peer review process is something that listeners won't necessarily understand or know about, but what happens with academic journals is that when authors submit a paper to a journal, it gets reviewed by two experts in the field, and so part of my job with the PATT conference was to do the first kind of read-through and review of the papers that were submitted and then identify two experts in the field to send them off to, to get them to read through, offer some advice if the paper needed improving or tell us that the paper was ready to accept. And yeah, if you're kind of thinking about that in stages is also the authors did this in two stages because first of all, they put an abstract for what they had hoped intended to do in the paper and then, once they got their first bit of feedback, they submitted the full paper.

Alison Hardy: 3:33

So the abstracts. Pat Thompson calls them like tiny stories, doesn't she? They're about 300 words, aren't they Like a summary?

Sarah Davies: 3:41

Yeah, yeah, I like that idea of a tiny story. So authors are asked to, yeah, in 300 words, to kind of summarize the paper that they're going to be submitting to the conference, so what it's about, why they wrote it, how it might fit in with with other things that they're doing, or the bigger picture of design, technology, education, teaching, and then they also kind of give a bit of an idea of what they might cover, the sort of sections that might appear in their paper, and why you should, why you should listen to their or read their article.

Alison Hardy: 4:15

Yeah.

Sarah Davies: 4:16

Yeah.

Alison Hardy: 4:17

So their articles, their journal, their full papers? Was it a word limit of 4000?

Sarah Davies: 4:25

Yes, it was a 4000 words, article which, sounds big doesn't it?

Sarah Davies: 4:30

I've seen a lot of words to teachers that might be thinking about submitting a paper in the future.

Sarah Davies: 4:41

But yeah, but I think by following that structure, because what we do to or what I did, to sort of support authors as part of that editing role, if you like is that authors are given a suggested framework for how they write up their paper, so roughly kind of how many words to put in the introduction, conclusion, and then the main body of their article has a kind of a bit of a formula of what the literature says about their topic, what the research was that they actually conducted, what they found out, and then a sort of time for a bit of discussion on what their findings mean.

Sarah Davies: 5:20

And quite often some of the some of the authors that submitted papers, this was like the first stage of analysing data from perhaps potentially a kind of bigger research project, maybe their masters that they might have completed or a PhD that they might be studying for at the time of the conference. So it's a really a good place to start, if you like, the conference, for talking about your research, your work, your ideas to an audience who are kind of pretty, pretty friendly, if you like, and won't be too mean to you and I suppose we're getting on there a bit more to the conference, but I think I was a bit. I wanted to say we're sort of the way we tried to ensure that the submission and the peer review process was also less scary, I guess, than submitting to a journal article.

Sarah Davies: 6:20

So I said earlier that we kind of repeated this idea of a peer review process, which is where everyone's piece of writing is read by two experts and by experts. If it was a journal we'd be thinking about experts in the field. So anybody who writes knows about our subject design and take on it.

Sarah Davies: 6:44

And so because the conference was attracting first time writers, teachers, teachers from all areas sort of, from primary school to secondary schools, both at the universities, and as well as researchers and academics, it meant that we wanted to ensure that the peer review team was also comprised of that field of experts. So we think everybody who kind of is part of the PAC community, the conference as an expert. So therefore everyone who submitted a paper was also asked to review and give comments and feedback on two other papers yeah.

Sarah Davies: 7:29

Yeah, and so we did that, I suppose, to kind of try and make the process transparent, because that's the thing is, if you then go on from a conference to submit something to a journal article, I know the first time I did it, you don't really know about this process. Yeah, it's interesting Because the peer reviewers are anonymous. You don't find out who the people are giving you feedback, but you kind of upload your article to a often a sort of online portal and then some stranger writes back to you. Might not be that nice, well, you know, not that not, but they might not be horrible. But you know, we all kind of struggle with criticism, don't we?

Sarah Davies: 8:13

So yeah, apprehension isn't it yeah, lovingly, you know giving up our precious you know, time to write this masterpiece. Right For all thousand words. And then someone comes back and goes oh, I don't know why you've done this, or you know you need to do that.

Sarah Davies: 8:30

Yeah, we did our reviewers criteria on ensuring that they gave people constructive feedback about what was working well, what were the sort of strengths of the paper and then some areas that were basically not that understandable to the reader. You know, thinking about you as a reader, and if we're thinking about this broad community that goes to the PAC conference of, yeah, teachers, early stage researchers, phd students, master students, we also have members of the exam board and the subject association, as well as the academics and the researchers that might work in universities and so, yeah, so he's trying to make that process transparent as well as it being a kind of professional development opportunity, because quite a few of the yeah, the new writers not didn't feel worthy. But do you mean? They were writing to me saying are you sure you want me to review this, or you?

Alison Hardy: 9:32

know, imposter syndrome, I suppose, is almost what it is, isn't it? It is, yeah. Who am I to review this paper written by this esteemed person?

Sarah Davies: 9:41

Yeah and I've never done it before. But you know, if we all say yeah, how are you going to replace the ones who've been doing it for a long time?

Alison Hardy: 9:47

Yeah.

Sarah Davies: 9:47

And also, why should those ones have been doing it for a long time continue to keep doing it? And so in the sort of the spirit of the conference was all about equality, diversity and inclusion, and so we wanted to, yeah, take that forward into the review process, and so I offered kind of like weekly drop-ins for authors to, or peer reviewers by that stage to come into if they wanted to sort of ask questions or get some support as well as Did you get?

Alison Hardy: 10:14

many. Did you get many come up? Did you get many come along? To those?

Sarah Davies: 10:17

I didn't have loads but I had about three or four. Yeah yeah, yeah. So some came to the drop-in some kind of sent me emails to give sort of general support to yeah, so it's worth while doing yeah so what?

Alison Hardy: 10:31

so how long did all that process take, from submitting the abstract? Well, you know, it's not a slow, it's not a, it's not long, but it's not quick. I know there isn't that process.

Sarah Davies: 10:43

Yeah, the the sort of from submitting the abstract, authors had about three months to submit their first draft of 4000 words, and I think that's key as well is thinking that it is. It's your first draft and the idea is that you will get quality feedback from your peer reviewers, because that's the you know, that's the other thing which you're out of education. You don't have a dedicated tutor to look at the things that you do. So peer reviewers also fulfill this role of supporting the community in progressing their work. So it's like, yeah, it's like you might have given it to somebody in your family or a close you know, somebody close to you to read it, but they're not necessarily design technology specialists. So if you give it to another teacher or another academic researcher or another PhD student, you're getting a sort of specialist bit of insight into your work and they're helping you to move it forward. So then, once you get that lot of feedback, then authors have another three months to submit their final one of the paper.

Alison Hardy: 11:52

So it's kind of six months or so, isn't it?

Sarah Davies: 11:56

yeah, but it means that I mean, this is more like insight into my world. It means that they all then come in at the same time. So you've then got. I mean, we had over 70 papers.

Alison Hardy: 12:09

The next question is how many came in?

Sarah Davies: 12:11

Which, yeah, so I've put 70 plus, because there were kind of workshops posters, some people who'd said they wanted to do a paper kind of were running out time and so we advised them to put in posters, and so they all kind of came in. So, although I'm saying there's three months for the authors to write them, you'd then have that deadline of having, yes, you could go through the peer review stage within a kind of the time scale of a month for weeks. Yeah, yeah, you know. So another reason we use the whole PAT 40 community, if you like, all the authors that submitted the papers, was to sort of share that load, because I, you know, I think you know, as I'm sure you've talked about in this, this podcast, isn't it, that research in D&T is not a huge field, and so we're kind of trying to to grow the pool of people who are interested in writing our subjects.

Sarah Davies: 13:15

So I think it's really important to support and develop teachers if they want to get involved in this work.

Alison Hardy: 13:24

We did have quite a few teachers that we involved in submitting papers, didn't we?

Sarah Davies: 13:28

Yes, yeah, I mean it was, was it all teachers? I think it was mainly teachers that took up my advice and support Some kind of early initial teacher education, because I think of what you said earlier is this sort of imposter syndrome that we forget that we are knowledgeable and we have expertise. And, okay, you might not have expertise researching, but you, you're gonna have definitely have expertise on understanding what somebody has written meant to help you in your role as a teacher.

Sarah Davies: 14:09

Yeah exactly, and so, yeah, it's kind of sort of convincing people of helping that, because quite often you know some of the big things and I remember making this mistake sort of in some of my first conference papers is that you want to do everything. So, although we said 4,000 words can be like oh scary, I've got to write 4,000 words, but actually if you're new to writing, you want to write everything you know in those four words and so, yeah, I think quite often some of the feedback for early career or early stage writers is to just focus on one thing.

Alison Hardy: 14:47

Yeah, it's so easy, isn't it? When you're writing something and I see this all the time and it's just a mistake that we all make and I still, I still do it is, you think, but this is interesting, I want to put this in as well and you have to kind of go yeah, but it's not relevant. It's not relevant and it is quite difficult to kind of keep that, keep that focus. That's why I think a strong editor like yourself and like getting that peer review process helps. So in terms of so I think that's really useful for the process. If there's any teachers listening or early career reaches in design technology because what mean you're a really big about how much there is getting teachers involved in doing research and writing about it I kind of thinking about how do I get engaged at the conference you really demystified that when we haven't even talked about so. We don't really want to make public the, the hidden thing that very few people actually meet the deadlines.

Alison Hardy: 15:41

That's not something we want to broadcast too much. But that is a truth, isn't it? She says a hiding head in shame because mine was late.

Sarah Davies: 15:52

Well, and I think that's what makes submitting to a conference easier than submitting to a journal, or a little bit more friendly or nicer than submitting it to a journal. Because journals have very tight deadlines and if you don't get it in, or you don't get it in for an issue that the editor has decided, your article is going to be in.

Sarah Davies: 16:16

It's kind of tough and it's also down to you to submit it in the first place, whereas conferences are structured in a way that they give you a deadline if you like deadlines and I think quite pragmatic. So I quite like a deadline to help me kind of juggle the different things that I do, which I teach in a university rather than in a school, but it does mean you're sort of juggling that teacher role as well as the writer role. Yeah, and it does mean that if we want them in the conference, we can be a little bit more generous.

Alison Hardy: 16:53

Yeah, I think I'll say a little bit close to the wind with mine, but there we go.

Sarah Davies: 16:56

It was in, it was there. So, all like Alison, I'd be getting more aggressive and put my foot down, but you know.

Alison Hardy: 17:04

I wasn't the worst. I wasn't the worst. I could name and shame some of the people the worst because they've done chapters for my books, but I wouldn't want to do that.

Sarah Davies: 17:13

You're not, no, you're normally very, you know very good. Thank you, thank you.

Alison Hardy: 17:17

I'm feeling better now.

Sarah Davies: 17:18

Thank, you Maybe feel a bit better.

Alison Hardy: 17:20

So what about topics? What sort of things people are writing about? Was there any general themes?

Sarah Davies: 17:27

Well, what I was going to say is that the breadth of papers was so huge that it was kind of challenging to pick out themes, I mean. I think and that's kind of a positive and a negative those that may have been listening to these podcasts and thinking about coming to future PAC conferences or listening in on PAC conferences or reading the proceedings, they'll get a sense that there's lots to kind of pick and choose from. So it was, you were able to identify which ones you wanted to go and see Some classes, but generally so. There was one that was kind of talking about AI, using AI in the classroom, and that was very popular. I was sort of interested in sessions that were around looking at teachers in the classroom and design technology workshops. I guess there were ones about language and different activities, pedagogy that was used in the classroom, as well as topics more around research in general, higher education learning.

Sarah Davies: 18:43

So, what is unlike here? There are still internationally teacher education is done over four years Secondary and kind of higher levels, rather than in a kind of one year course which we get in the UK. So I suppose I enjoyed the talks that were presented by teachers or early career researchers as well, and PhD students.

Alison Hardy: 19:15

So was there any? Because there was three things at the conference wasn't there. Yeah Well, I'm just curious about whether any were kind of more popular in terms of their responses. Does that make sense?

Sarah Davies: 19:32

Yeah, so thematically, we actually set some themes for people to write towards or to position their research within. So it meant that we had a category which was about teaching, curriculum and assessment, which was a popular category.

Sarah Davies: 19:52

We had one around teacher education which was one of the had a decent amount of papers but was one of the less popular ones. We also had one that was kind of more philosophical for people to be about the subject in general, and then we also had a category that was research informed. Thinking about the agenda in the UK really at the moment- so evidence yeah evidence, informed practice, and that, interestingly, was more. The authors that submitted to that theme were international rather than UK.

Sarah Davies: 20:32

Interesting order in general yeah, yeah, in general yeah, all right, and so what was your initial?

Alison Hardy: 20:40

Well, it's just you know which of the themes was the most, you know, popular. You know so that's an interesting one that the evidence-based ones, even though you know there's a real drive for research-informed practice in England and that's a whole other debate that that was where the contributors from the UK were more philosophical.

Sarah Davies: 21:07

The older, and I want to say the older academics maybe, or the more established academics were Right it's more tactful. So, yeah, so some of the new teacher researchers and new to higher education, which is so not that long back in the classroom, we're doing, yeah, research in the classroom very small scale, so potentially limited in how you could sort of use that as your evidence with somebody like the DFA or Ofsted.

Alison Hardy: 21:41

Or even within your school.

Sarah Davies: 21:44

Yeah, yeah.

Alison Hardy: 21:45

Don't extend.

Sarah Davies: 21:47

Yeah, Alexandra Selumko was sort of looking at this idea of masculinity and femininity within design and technology. That was the students' perceptions around what was sort of ladish and girlish, sort of interesting. And obviously I like the Alexanders because he's another Alex, yes, so I can't find my little notes on them. But yeah.

Alison Hardy: 22:16

So if D&T wasn't so easy, I wouldn't be so good at it, that one.

Sarah Davies: 22:20

Yeah, they'd sort of looked at so they're coming on the podcast.

Alison Hardy: 22:23

They're coming on the podcast. They're recording with them next week.

Sarah Davies: 22:25

yeah, You'll find out more later, then I won't be able to do that.

Alison Hardy: 22:29

Go on tell us what you liked about it.

Sarah Davies: 22:32

Well, I liked the fact that they were taking a whole school pedagogical approach and analysing it really in terms of design and technology. So you know how we sometimes the headteacher or senior leadership will say we've all got to do a leaderboard quiz at the start of our session, or we've all got to do a retrieval practice at the start of our session, and so they had some tension. They weren't that comfortable about doing this activity within their lessons, but then they decided to sort of do an investigation into it and how they could make it work within their subjects by changing it really.

Sarah Davies: 23:13

So it made me think of, I guess, one of my PGCE students from last year who one of the assignments, we asked the students to plan a sort of sequence of lessons and they'd looked at this sort of idea of retrieval practice and through they'd embedded it because they had to, because the school had asked them to. But then when they kind of presented it as part of their assessment, they almost had this revelation that actually they only needed to do it in design and technology sort of more, towards certain specific points within a series of lessons. Yeah, that it had more impact rather than trying to do what the sort of whole school approach was. So it was kind of challenging that and looking at that.

Alison Hardy: 23:57

So that's interesting. The research there is then saying is yeah, there's these national, local drives and actually by doing research on your practice, you're exploring whether that drive, that initiative, fits in the way that everybody else is, determining that it fits, and kind of doing it's not quite action research, but you're doing some participatory research on you, you're doing research on your classroom practice and that then gives you some strength to go back and have a professional conversation with the people saying we all need to do it like this, to say, well, I've tried it like that or I've tried it like this, and this is where it's having more of an impact on what the pupils are learning.

Sarah Davies: 24:41

Yeah, it kind of helps you sort of demystify the research process, even if it is sort of small scale, in your 20-year classroom, and then, as you've just said, it then gives you confidence and a voice.

Alison Hardy: 24:58

Yeah, I think that's one of the reasons why I think we need to do more research in D&T. I mean, we were kind of just a moment ago not dismissive of small scale research in a classroom, but it is going to work starts, isn't it? You have to do that within a classroom to be able to get some leverage, to be able to say, well, we need to be doing this in a bigger scale as we just cross a number of schools, a number of different classes within D&T to explore it, and so all of that just gives more debating power I'm not using the right words here but to have those professional conversations.

Sarah Davies: 25:36

Well, I think I was going to say it is about empowering, because I think I'm sure we've had this conversation on. You know, sat in a car going to some event that we're going to, about that idea of utilising teacher-agent, or, I think, a better way of thinking about empowering teachers to feel like they can change from the ground up, if you like, by questioning some of the things that we're asked to do or teachers are being asked to do.

Sarah Davies: 26:00

That keeps them so busy that they don't have time to reflect on what's actually happening or argue the talks about what sort of is being foisted upon them from sometimes a starting point that doesn't have practical subjects, more complex subjects or just different subjects, isn't it?

Alison Hardy: 26:21

It's not even more complex, more academic, more vocational, more whatever. It's just different subjects. I mean, we know that the epistemology of every school subject is different, the knowledge base, the knowledge structures. We know that the end goals, the aims of each subject is different. So how can we say that every pedagogy should be the same? That's kind of you know, and the research shows that the pedagogy for D&T is in different forms, you know, as it is for other subjects. So yeah, it's just kind of bizarre where everybody says we all have to do retrieval practice. We have to first of all work out what is it we need to retrieve or why we need to retrieve it, and at what point is that appropriate in terms of developing children towards the end goal of D&T capability.

Alison Hardy: 27:13

I've just slightly gone off on one thing. I've got slightly animated, but yeah, and I think you know everything that you've spoken about in terms of the process, about contributing to a conference, getting involved kind of demystifies it, so that teachers feel that they can do this, whether it's for a research conference or a teacher conference, sharing what they're doing. I did a podcast that's out on subscription where I talk about how can teachers do small scale research in their classrooms in a way that has some rigor to it. I'm saying all of this completely wrong, so it sounds like I'm being patronising, but you know, if teachers are wanting to do research, how do you go about it?

Alison Hardy: 27:58

Does it have to be published? No, it doesn't have to be published. You can just do research for your own practice. But the more teachers are engaged in that criticality and reflecting in a structured way, that then when you have conversations with people outside the subject, it kind of gives it that grounding is important. So yeah, so I think those papers and I'll find some of those papers that you've talked about and I'll put those links in the show notes so that people can have a look at those conference papers who are doing stuff in classrooms to see what they're doing and how they're doing it. The topic might not be of interest, but looking at the method could be really interesting, was it?

Sarah Davies: 28:38

Yeah, and I think it's gone. We're just listening to you speak because I think that the emphasis as well from the government on this substantive and disciplinary knowledge is our own, isn't it? The disciplinary knowledge? It's going to be different in every subject, isn't?

Alison Hardy: 28:53

it. Yeah, yeah, I mean that came from Christine Council and her work in history, and I've had conversation with Christine and she's like we can't say that it fits for every school subject. Each subject has its own structure, but we need to have conversations about it. So would you recommend teachers, then, to get involved in sharing their research, and do you have any ideas about how they could?

Sarah Davies: 29:23

I would definitely encourage them to. What are you saying? Share their research or just get involved in research. Get involved in it, yeah, getting involved in research, which made me think, because not in Trent. Or the Institute of Education has this year has been involved in a project to work with local partnership schools on British research.

Sarah Davies: 29:52

They had funding for the year but the idea is having a conference in the summer to create funding and to pursue that further. That's obviously is only going to be useful to teachers working in the East Midlands, but definitely there are opportunities that teachers could feel free to get in touch with me if they're interested in practitioner research they want to get them involved.

Sarah Davies: 30:16

It was interesting that several teachers were presenting their master's education research again not the whole thing, aspects of it. So also, if time is willing, I do think that a master's in education is a really useful way to give you some space to think about your practice In. Yeah, I can't, it's not. It's not like you said the word integrity before. That's not the right word, is it? But it's trying to Credibility.

Sarah Davies: 30:49

Yes, that's definitely isn't it. Yeah, it's a rigor, yeah, it's giving it rigor, but it's that idea of plan, do and review isn't it yeah. If you do some reading or you've got a frustration and you find out you've kind of read some about others, tried it out in the classroom, you're planning it, you do it. Your reflection might become the write-up of your research isn't it.

Sarah Davies: 31:13

And so a master's programme can give you that space and community to sort of look at things slightly objectively. I suppose that's the word I'm looking for, isn't it? We know that often if we are involved in research, it's sort of challenging to be objective when it's so sort of passionate and it's sort of based on your classroom practice can be useful. We've obviously got our researching D&T website.

Alison Hardy: 31:42

Yes, teacher-cared share blog posts on that. I've got one queued up ready to go for that. So, yeah, that's just a short blog post that we're supporting teachers in writing a little bit about their research, what they're doing in their classrooms.

Sarah Davies: 31:58

And also I was pointed at in a session the other day as part of this teacher practitioner research project I'm involved in, cambridge University are sponsoring this thing called wwwcamtradeorg, so I'll send you the link, okay, yeah, we'll put that in the show now, and that's a website where they're putting up support for teachers to do practitioner research.

Alison Hardy: 32:19

Okay, yeah, and I'm sure actually wherever people are that are listening, that contacting the local university where they've got a school of education, department of education, and saying you know what do you do, is there any way I can get involved? I've got an idea for a research project. Anybody can help. You might get rebuffed to go and try somewhere else. You know, as Sarah says, contact her or contact me to find out more. And I've done a couple of podcasts and I'll do a follow-up podcast on Thursday release for subscribers about some of the more, some of the topics maybe that people might want to think about doing with some researching.

Sarah Davies: 32:54

Yeah. Well, I was going to say subscribe to Alison's page channel then as well, to find out, yeah Of course, of course, the subscription's in the help with the running of the podcast.

Alison Hardy: 33:09

They don't pay for my dinners out, yeah, my dinners out. I don't go out for dinner, but don't go out and let me Right. Well, thanks, sarah, for sharing your thoughts about that, and I think that's a really practical podcast for people to listen to, to demystify the process, but also to think about what was engaging and what was happening in some of those research areas.

Sarah Davies: 33:29

So thank you very much Thank you for having me and, yeah, I will move on to the next thing. I see we've run out of time.

Alison Hardy: 33:40

I'm Dr Alison Hardy and you've been listening to the Talking D&T podcast. If you enjoyed the podcast, then do subscribe on whatever platform you use, and do consider leaving a review, as it does help others find the podcast. I do the podcast because I want to support the D&T community in developing their practice, so please do share the podcast with your D&T community. If you want to respond to something I've talked about or have an idea for a future episode, then either leave me a voice memo via SpeakPipe or drop me an email. You can find details about me, the podcast and how to connect with me on my website, dralisonhardycom. Also, if you want to support the podcast financially, you can become a patron. Links to SpeakPipe, patreon and my website are in the show notes. Thanks for listening.