Design Objects and Their Hidden Impact: a conversation with Alice Hellard (part 1)

This is the first part of a conversation with Alice Hellard from Goldsmiths. We unravel the complexities of agency, design and objects agency in museum settings. Alice's research, presented at PATT40, looks at the often-overlooked emotional and philosophical connections we form with objects, and how these relationships are shaped by historical practices and curatorial decisions. Her research underscores the importance of bridging the gap between students and the items they study, challenging the conventional wisdom of design and technology education to foster a more profound understanding amongst students.

Throughout our conversation, we dissect the nuanced power dynamics of museum displays, using examples like nude heels and the globalization of fashion to illustrate the limitations of current curatorial practices and their impact on cultural representation. We share our personal stories with iconic design pieces that evoke deep emotional responses, emphasizing their significance in our lives. Alice champions a future where museums not only exhibit objects but also facilitate immersive experiences that democratize design comprehension. By the end of this episode, you'll be inspired to think differently about the role of design in our lives and the potential it has to shape our relationship with the world.

(Text generated by AI, edited by Alison Hardy)

Ciaran Ellis posted a thought-provoking question on LinkedIn recently: Do design decisions involve value judgements?

What do you think? Join the conversation over on LinkedIn and let us know what you think. 

Transcript

Speaker 1: 1:03

You're listening to the Talking D&T podcast. I'm Dr Alison Hardy, a writer, researcher and advocate of design and technology education. In each episode I share views, news and opinions about D&T. So this week it's another Pat Forty episode, and today I've got an author who presented at the conference, alice Hellard. And Alice is here to talk about her paper and taking a deep breath about to say your title for engaging object agency new ways of design, learning and being for young people in the museum. Alice is at Goldsmiths and is involved in the PGCE there for design and technology. So I'm going to hand over to you, alice, to say a little bit about who you are, where you are and what you do, and then we'll kick off with a little bit of an overview of your paper.

Speaker 2: 1:57

Thank you. Yes, hello, I am currently a lecturer at Goldsmiths in the design department and, as you said, I work on the D&T PGCE there, and previous to that I was the head of department and the D&T teacher in schools in South East London, and in addition to that I'm also doing a PhD, which is what this kind of research is coming out of, looking at, as the title suggests, all things around object agency and specifically how young people experience that in design learning in the museum.

Speaker 1: 2:37

So because even just some of those terms will have blown people's heads off and thinking what do they mean? Do you want to give us a layperson's introduction to your paper and then we'll go from there?

Speaker 2: 2:53

Yes, I will, if that I'm also taking a deep breath. Hopefully I'm going to sort of do it justice, but also try and make it as accessible as possible.

Speaker 1: 3:04

I will make any notes along the way of things that I think we might need to come back and check what we're saying. But yeah, okay taking a deep breath Off you go.

Speaker 2: 3:14

So as a classroom teacher, during my teaching I was always very preoccupied really with the ethics of design and the ethics of design education, and I'm not religious therewith. But when I left classroom teaching I decided to study religion and Christianity specifically as a different way of into sort of my understanding of ways of being in ethics. And at this time I was also working as a design, as a freelance design education provider, educator in museums. So all of that kind of led me to think much more carefully about the nature of design learning in museums and in school and also about some of the disconnections that I was receiving between the objects on display, schools, teachers, museums, designers and design learning in schools. So this paper that we're sort of discussing today outlines the context of my research, which specifically focus on some of the Christian colonial context of our contemporary museum practices European, I should say, museum practices and also I discuss the relevance of museums and museum based learning about design to D&T teaching in schools. And the main thread of the paper is that in design learning in this context, there's a sort of separation between subject and object, so a separation between visitors or learners and the objects on display. When the case of D&T in school the object that's being designed. And so my research suggests this separation has come about due to a whole sort of network of reasons, but one of them is argued to be the favouring of sight over all the other senses, so that looking is almost the only way that we experience objects in museums. And in museums and I also argue sort of this is the case in D&T classrooms the design object is often seen as something that's being reified, so the design idea or the design concept is made visible as a concrete thing. Now reification is argued to be a bit of a problem because it sort of separates and objectifies. It sets the design object apart from us, from you know people who are experiencing it, and this can make it really hard to see the connections that we have with objects of design, so how we know it and use it and feel it and think about the objects around us. And in schools we are, after all, principally concerned with how design impacts human life. So this separation of subject from object is a bit of a problem.

Speaker 2: 5:38

And another reason for this separation is that is what's called the sort of secularisation of museums over the last century or so, and I do focus on that in some detail in the paper, where religion and belief is sort of privatised from museums and cultural and religious meaning has been stripped back and away from objects so that we might learn something about the craftsmanship or the historical significance of the objects. But the objects themselves have been sort of displayed outside of their own context. They've been separated from the culture or the context that they came out of, so they sort of decontextualised. And during colonialism this separation was a way of othering objects and the cultures that they represent as sort of primitive or exotic or just different really. And museums these days are increasingly concerned with representation as a way of kind of decolonising or overcoming issues around colonialism, and that means kind of representing diverse cultures and narratives and people being able to see themselves and the objects on display. However, the concept of representation in particular I'm looking at particularly obviously in the museum context is really contested because representation cannot act like a mirror. So when you hold a mirror up to something, you're still not seeing or experiencing the thing itself and it continues to create a sort of sameness. And going back to how I sort of started, a false separation between subject and object. It's very static but it sort of objectifies the thing that's being represented.

Speaker 2: 7:18

And so for D&T in schools, I sort of think that this separation manifests a bit like this we often consider designers a human-centered activity user-centered actually and throughout the design process pupils might use a range of methods to understand the needs of the user and in fact, one of the first things that we address with students in second-year schools is that the designer isn't the user. We ask them to design for others and this is fine, except doing this means that we're kind of separating, abstracting the user from the designer and the design process. All of these things are sort of objectified, and what I found in my practice research so far is that the students that I'm working with have found it really difficult to engage themselves you know, their own self-knowledge and what they know about themselves and their subjectivity and their agency with the objects that they're experiencing on display in the museum. They've been sort of preoccupied with the function of the object, the product and the purpose and the user of it, for example, rather than what they think and feel and know about the object in relation to themselves, and my sense is that this is because they experience the object as separate from them. We've got this separation from object and subject.

Speaker 2: 8:33

And I think in D&T we might take for granted that learners have agency when they're making decisions about what they're designing, for example. But I think I propose that this kind of agency is sort of separated because it's centered around something which is objectified, which is separate. And so in order to address this subject, object separation my research aims to sort of locate the learner's subjectiveness and their own agency within the experience of design so that they are able to design with themselves. And my hope is that by activating and making visible their subjectivity and their agency, I identify a pedagogy that kind of relocates the objects on display with and within the context of the learner. So that is my sort of summary. There's a lot in there. I'm very conscious that there's a lot in there.

Speaker 1: 9:26

So what I was thinking when you were talking about objects in museums that are sort of decontextualised because they're on a plinth or whatever. Can you? I think what might be helpful and would be helpful for me is if you can give some examples, some concrete examples. Does that make sense?

Speaker 2: 9:47

So, for example, in the V&A museum there is I'm just trying to think of an object here there is a chair I can't remember the designer, actually it's called the Garui chair. It's the black leather chair. The seat and the back of the chair is black leather and it's got Mickey Mouse ears and the legs are, I think they're stainless steel but they've got cast aluminium feet in the shape of Mickey Mouse's shoes and it makes no reference at all to Mickey Mouse. Or it's there in the section of the 1900 to now gallery and it sits in the nestled amongst loads of other different objects and there's a label next to it which just all it shows is the title of the piece, the name of the piece and the designer and the year of designer materials. There's no kind of, there's no packing out around that.

Speaker 2: 11:01

And right next to it is this glass cabinet and inside that is an object that is a set of shoes, for example, literally right next door.

Speaker 2: 11:14

You can see them in the same kind of view, these two objects next to each other.

Speaker 2: 11:19

They are the Christiane Lebutin nude heels and they were the first, apparently the first time that sort of high design had designed nude heels for people of colour, so they weren't just kind of you know the flesh colour of white European people and the label around that gives a whole host of information or sort of hints at a whole host of information about why they were designed and who for, and talks about globalisation and that kind of thing, but we don't know anything beyond the intention of the designer about how they're worn, who they're worn by. You know all of that kind of stuff and so our experience when we walk through an exhibition like that with all these different kind of you know objects and things that are put next to and amongst each other, is that we're just kind of looking and reading and if we're so inclined, we might have a little think about. You know, is anybody who's this object in the past, or where this has come from or what life does it have here? But we're quite disconnected. In the case of the shoes, we're also disconnected by a glass box that surrounds the cabinet and there are several other objects within that cabinet, but we don't even really know why they're next to each other or why the curator is next to each other, which well for me it led me to think loads of stuff about globalization and all this other kind of stuff there for me about you know how we Capital, capitalism, Capitalism

Speaker 2: 13:03

you know, why does the Mickey Mouse chair not need? Why is there no obvious reference to the fact it is based on Mickey Mouse? We don't need that because everybody knows Mickey Mouse is a little global brand, you know, and all that kind of stuff is quite interesting. But ostensibly, you know, it is simply there because the curator has put it there and they've got their own very good and very sort of, I'm sure, research informed reasons for having made those decisions. But really, as a visitor, you know, we walk around and our interest is peaked or not by various objects, by the visual, by what we see.

Speaker 1: 13:42

Yeah, so you're making me think so while you've been talking. I found the links to both of those items at the V&E, Thank you, and I put out so people can see those. And there is a little bit of blur about both of those. But yeah, there isn't. The shoes are seen as the object, aren't they? Not? Somebody wearing them? Yeah, and what difference that might make, Because that would be really powerful if you had a photograph of a woman in colour, in the pale beige.

Speaker 1: 14:11

do you know what I mean Exactly Designed for a white woman and then see her in a colour that are more in tone with her skin colour. Yeah, the power of just okay, it's still visual, but there's more of a power there, of Well, I think that the intention.

Speaker 2: 14:27

That word power that you are talking about is a really interesting one, particularly for what I'm sort of researching, because I think the other thing that comes into that is that object, particularly those objects, that little collection objects particularly, have quite an interpretative label, whereas the Gariri chair doesn't, the nude heels do, and it talks about how this was kind of you know, the first time because of globalisation. Actually it talks about people being able to being conscious of and wanting, desiring sort of high fashion in countries beyond, you know, western and European contexts. That's what it's kind of sort of suggesting and it really got me thinking what about people in in Western contexts who are people of colour? Surely they want the right colour.

Speaker 1: 15:24

Nude heels Do you know what I mean? It's things like that. That's an excuse. It's an excuse, isn't it?

Speaker 2: 15:28

It's like how, then, About globalisation? And that's, you know, it's the power of globalisation and it's also the power of communication and the power of the visual thing. So what you're saying is, you know, is when we wouldn't it be useful to see an image, to have a bit more context around this? Wouldn't it be useful to you know, rather than simply relying on just our own kind of immediate sort of linear?

Speaker 1: 15:54

collections Visual, yeah, and visual collections, and it's it's, it's the product is taken in isolation and also making it into art. Yeah, yeah, so they're abstracted. Exactly so sociological development.

Speaker 2: 16:05

Yeah, abstracted from its, from its context, and completely objectified. It's separated from from us and what, what our own understanding and our own kind of cultural experiences are.

Speaker 1: 16:17

And then sorry, I mean this is kind of going a little bit off-piste here, but you can make me think I went to a Memphis exhibition in Milton Keynes, of all places.

Speaker 2: 16:29

Memphis and Malcolm Keynes. That sounds brilliant.

Speaker 1: 16:32

Yeah, and I'm pretty sure it was. In the Milton Keynes I met up with my old university mate, Steve, and his husband David, and we went round this exhibition Because I love Memphis, I absolutely love it. Anybody who came who's been here. So much about my life here. My first husband made me a mirror that was inspired by Memphis. And it's all visual and he made me a set of four garden chairs based on the first chair.

Speaker 2: 17:11

I hope you've still got those chairs, Alison. I've got one.

Speaker 1: 17:16

As I go through husbands I kind of have to lay chairs. Sorry, that's where I'm just revealing. My life isn't like that, but it's the visual. And you see, in schools, in D&T, when teachers ask children to design things in the style of, and actually over time that's causing me a real deep discomfort Because Art Nouveau, art Deco, memphis and all of those, there is a historical sociological capitalism reason why they came in to be. I love the style, right, but it's the ideology and the philosophy of these designers that really gets me. But I feel is lost and we just look at the pictures. So when me and Steve and David went round this Memphis exhibition, we were ours. It was like three rooms. We were ours in there, going backwards and forwards and readings. We were making connections between the development and what the designers were saying.

Speaker 2: 18:29

It was a really well curated exhibition, but also such a rich kind of ground, because Memphis obviously was a very philosophical tradition. There was a lot of thinking going behind those aesthetic.

Speaker 1: 18:48

Yes, they weren't just. They were there to challenge. Let's put Walnut with Melamine for our MildEye. They were trying to challenge what we were seeing in day to day practice as new materials the other thing that gets lost. These things were happening because new materials and new processes were being created. Arts and crafts were in MildEye. It was a reaction against the industrialisation. Those are the things that get lost when we just look at the objects. Am I getting that right? I don't mean I'm looking for it?

Speaker 2: 19:19

No, I think absolutely. It's just where you're thinking.

Speaker 1: 19:22

Is that trying to make it visual? No, I mean visual Concrete.

Speaker 2: 19:29

Yes, to a great degree, although I've just written a note because you've just made me think about that thing, about you know something that I'm currently doing the practice research with a group of year 12 students and some of it is really challenging. It's challenging me to think in different ways and stuff. So the comment that you just made about when we asked to design the style of you know one of the things that I'm looking at with them.

Speaker 2: 19:52

I will answer your question in a minute but one of the things that I'm looking at with them is that they really become aware of with them is how a lot of the kind of the designally behaviours that I think they're used to in schools.

Speaker 2: 20:07

I'm basically asking them to rethink that and to come at designing and design methods in a very, very different way, and I didn't really anticipate this is a bit naive of me, I'll be honest but I didn't really anticipate quite how hard that was going to be before we started that project. And so you talking about designing in the style of, and how prevalent that is as a method in schools, and I've done it. Oh, me too, I've done it yeah.

Speaker 2: 20:36

And that's. You know, that's helped me. Just that one comment is just, you know, and it's like, oh, yes, okay, I can see that in so and so's work. Yes, that's really, that's when we actually got stuck on that thing there. You know how can I really encourage her to think in a different way about it and just shed off that way? But I think the other way. The other, the formulae, formulae kind of approaches excuse me, that we can fall back on in schools often is things like you're doing product analysis and using access, fm and those kind of systems.

Speaker 1: 21:14

I feel it.

Speaker 2: 21:15

I feel it, yes, and you just feel it down the microphone. Yeah, I feel it, and you know it's, it's, it's, it's running through me also, you know, and, and that is because when we that just becomes such an easy tick list. But it's just a way of of, you know, it's a way that we're just separating ourselves from the thing that we're looking at and we are looking at it and more often than not we're not even handling the object, we're looking at a picture of it. Yeah, so, so in one sense I am.

Speaker 2: 21:43

The research does think about different ways in, but it's also accepting that in museums I'm not, you know, this research is not going to change the fact that museums favor site is the is the kind of highest order that is. You know, we're not going anywhere with that, that's fine, but it's more about when we're looking, then and experiencing. How can we be thinking differently to what we are used to thinking when we look, and how can we use design methods and ways of designing to go a bit underneath, to bring out the things that we think and feel about an object? And I think in a way it's it's accepting and acknowledging that a lot of the things that are. The ways that object based learning is taught in schools can be quite formulaic, frankly, using things like access at them and stuff like that and there's a logic.

Speaker 1: 22:39

There is why teachers, why we've used them Absolutely Because it helps with the structure. It helps for children to remember things, all of that stuff, absolutely. And it's very can be a straight jacket as well as a.

Speaker 2: 22:52

Exactly, and the thing is that those scaffolds can be useful, of course. The whole point of scaffolds is that you gradually take them away.

Speaker 2: 22:58

And and I guess that you know what we're not used to in in designing in schools, but also in museums, the culture of museums. You know, what this paper is kind of exploring is that there's a whole kind of Latent and sort of active but Hard to see kind of methodology, if you like, at play which really foregrounds that the site. But the effect of that is to create a sort of separation between us and the objects on the display and us and the expert expertise there. And I suppose one of the things that I'm trying to do is to say but I'm an expert in how I interpret the object in relation to me, so I'm just bringing that out. Yes, it's useful to know that information, what it's made from the history that this object or this thing came out of. But really there's this other thing there which is how I'm relating to that object personally and that is influenced by my own social cultural experiences, my own self-knowledge, the things that really I'm interested in. You know the, but that is also.

Speaker 1: 24:20

they think that's also why it's important in D&T that teachers do expose children to as many different objects physically, but also their history and their development, so that the children's feelings and senses and knowledge for want of a better word expands, so that when they see something they're able, they've got a broader. I've really been talking quite a few people this week about vocabulary to be able to see, because even just talking about this Memphis exhibition I can feel my heart racing again.

Speaker 1: 25:02

Because there's something about it that really resonates when I go into that space, partly because it was. I think it was sort of fading away when I was just going to university late 80s, early 90s. It was kind of in its decline there, not decline, but it's kind of coming to its end. It was only very short lived things and the design museum was just opened and that was like a real rich place for us to go out from Brunel to visit.

Speaker 1: 25:25

But, yeah, I've just seen about you. You think about feelings, and Well, I think that's that thing.

Speaker 2: 25:30

But actually, you know, we've got this very kind of rational approach to designing and to understanding objects in design education. It's very, you know well, the way that it's taught in schools often is very, you know, rational, and feelings don't often come into it, do they? You know, we don't ask students to really think about how they feel about stuff or you know, or why they feel, or really to start things, and so I think, yeah, it's partly sort of just, you know, activating that. But I couldn't agree more with you, I think. I think exposing and using objects, and you know and also really drawing from.

Speaker 2: 26:13

You know, object based learning is the business of museums, but it's also our bread and butter, isn't it? You know whether it and, and so there, we're such a natural kind of best mates. Really. It's such a huge resource that museums offer to schools. Both you know, I know that. I'm pretty sure that you just looked up on the V&A's collection on that's on their website those two objects that we were talking about.

Speaker 1: 26:39

Yeah, I did.

Speaker 2: 26:41

You know that resource is at all of our kind of fingertips, so it is.

Speaker 1: 26:45

You can't be touching it can you, no, you can't be without using it. I mean, you know, steve Kerl, you know, and his collection of, is it um scrubbing brushes, I see, and I had a collection of potato peelers, you know, yeah, I love that. You know what my collection.

Speaker 2: 27:02

I've got lots of collections of things, but mine is Sony Portable Music Devices, really From the Walkman to, you know, through, obviously, discman.

Speaker 1: 27:13

Your budget was obviously a little bit more significant than mine With potato peelers, yeah, and these are all from my own childhood.

Speaker 2: 27:22

I'm a hoarder, yeah, yeah, yeah. But this thing, what you've also touched on, something I was talking about with the D&T PGC students just last week actually, and we do this one of our assignments is focused on object handling and using a hand in collection as part of teaching. But I was sort of, you know, talking them through some of the theory about active learning and all that kind of stuff, and then we're talking about we were talking a little bit about access to firm and how what are the different ways that we can do product analysis? And I said well, of course, aesthetics isn't just how something looks, is it?

Speaker 2: 27:57

It's all the ways that we judge the beauty of something through our senses and literally one of them was going well. I've been an artist for 20 years. I've never known that. You know.

Speaker 2: 28:08

I've never sort of I know. So it was this kind of like oh right, and somebody else was nodding Aspects, there's all the senses and we've got this preference for visuality is sort of runs through everything that we do. We focus really on what we can see and how something looks in D&D so often, but really it is about how we use all of our senses to judge the beauty of something, and obviously, of course, beauty is subjective, isn't it? You know? It's not something that is. Absolutely there I go, reconnecting. Subject to object again.

Speaker 1: 28:45

No, no, it's okay, it's just making me think about how I've reacted to different objects. Yeah, so I went at a previous Pat conference when it was in Utrecht in the Netherlands. Me and Sarah snuck out because I knew the Gerrit Riebeld House was in Utrecht and they've got one of the original red blue chairs. Oh my God, bennett, oh my, oh, it was just like the sex appeal to me from that chair. You know what I mean? Yes, sorry, and it's also I was thinking when I went into the Design Museum a long time ago and they had a Vitra selection of items and they had the Carlton bookcase from Memphis, okay, and it's like excuse my language, everybody, maybe if you'd like to, it was like orgasmic, sorry, sorry, she's there.

Speaker 1: 29:38

You know, sorry, it was not just the visual, but it was the size, it was the shape, it was. You know we weren't allowed to touch these things but, yeah, I'd never left it if I'd have been slathered all across it. You know, if I could, because you know you can see I mean nobody can see the recording of, I mean you can see my level of excitement. Do you know what?

Speaker 2: 30:00

This reminds me Smoothness. Yeah, I know exactly what you mean. This reminds me a little bit of my, my sort of obsession probably a bit less so now, but was always Jean-Pouvet furniture. So these sort of you know, really you know sort of early mid-century probably getting my dates all mixed up now Really lovely, beautiful chairs. You know reading chairs, you know leather and da, da, da da.

Speaker 2: 30:26

Anyway, I had this whole thing and I was going, okay, well, I can do it, I could make something like this. Probably I could. You know how can I do this? And then, with my ex-partner actually, we went to this ginormous sort of town, one town-wide second-hand sort of flea market thing in France, and we're just walking past, you know, it's literally street upon street of stuff, second-hand stuff for sale, which is, you know, obviously in itself a pretty amazing treat and walk past this chair and I was like, oh my God, that looks like a Jean-Pouvet chair. Oh, you know, literally. And then in fact the chair behind me was something that we bought at that market. I think you can see that over my shoulder.

Speaker 1: 31:08

Yeah, yeah, I was curious. I wasn't ready to mention that, yeah, so it's not this chair.

Speaker 2: 31:13

This was like the poor relation, but you know which is nice. Anyway, we sat on the chair because it was inviting a sitting and the guy who's stall it was ran over and was like, get off, you don't get to sit on that chair. And I think he was asking for I don't know a few thousand euros or something which was cheap, at the price which I was like, well, it's definitely Jean-Pouvet chair, isn't it? That proves it. He wouldn't even let us sit on it, but we've got to sit, you know, and it was this, it was that, it was the, it was an invitation, it was a demand. You sit on me now. That's how I felt, that's how I responded to that chair and needed to sit on it. Yeah, sorry, big progression.

Speaker 1: 31:56

And the idea of being in the presence isn't it? Yeah, I go back to what was talking about earlier, that I think my level of response, that emotional response, has become deeper over time as I have a greater understanding of how these objects came into being.

Speaker 2: 32:19

And also came into being in your life, because we sort of we we have loads of connections to them, don't we? And you know, definitely I've got Loads of university actually.

Speaker 1: 32:28

Yeah, Loads of university.

Speaker 2: 32:30

Yeah and yeah how you know where we kind of position things and how we connect to things and the meaning that we ascribe to things as well. But I think that some of those ways of thinking about stuff like it doesn't happen by accident. We're both really, really interested in designing and making stuff. That's what we've kind of, you know, hang our hat on, isn't it? And that's that's that's what we do. Now, obviously, some kids who are in school are going to, you know, might, might go on and do that kind of thing, but really it's it's about for me anyway, it's about we've got this opportunity in design, technology and in museums to kind of to make some connections. And also there's there's something about you know how it's I'm fine trying to find the words. I guess it's not how. It's not about representation or how people are represented in the museum, it's how they can connect in the museum, yes, and, and I think a lot of museum experiences can seem quite, you know, for young people.

Speaker 2: 33:40

Well, that's all right, yeah, you know. Oh, I liked seeing that, and I think there are ways in to that we can possibly sort of open up by thinking more about that, connecting our subjectivity and our agency actually, you know, and how we, how we, take action in the world. I think there are, there are different ways that we can open that up to make it more democratic. And part of that for me and this is what this, this paper, is kind of about is is about also opening up some of the things that currently influence that and that currently are there and have agency are acting on us and it's about kind of how we you know how we might go underneath that or around that or, you know, through it.

Speaker 1: 34:27

Yeah, and help children be aware of it. Yes, it's happening, yeah, yeah, so I'm going to suggest we take a pause because we've kind of really I think that was really useful. I'm hoping people listening found that really useful. Maybe not all of the excitement that we got into about certain objects, but it's well. Maybe gets people thinking about how they react to things and where that comes from. Yeah, and there's different feelings and I think we need to come back and do a part two where we talk more about this, this idea about agency and learner agency and how those things you know what you're trying to do in your, in your research, with that. And then I think we do a third one where we get a teacher into the conversation, yeah, to talk about ways forward. That be good, yeah, so thanks very much, alice, for that part one. Blown my head off, got me all excited.

Speaker 2: 35:14

Not in that way. I've got some really interesting things to look up about Memphis. Now I'm going to go back and revisit.

Speaker 1: 35:22

Yeah, there you go. Yeah, there you go, right, thanks, alice. Thank you, I'm Dr Alison Hardy and you've been listening to the Talking D&T podcast. If you enjoyed the podcast, then do subscribe, on whatever platform you use, and do consider leaving a review, as it does help others find the podcast. I do the podcast because I want to support the D&T community in developing their practice, so please do share the podcast with your D&T community. If you want to respond to something I've talked about or have an idea for a future episode, then either leave me a voice memo via speak pipe or drop me an email. You can find details about me, the podcast and how to connect with me on my website, dr Alison Hardycom. Also, if you want to support the podcast financially, you can become a patron. Links to speak pipe patron and my website are in the show notes. Thanks for listening.