Primary Perspectives: Shaping the Future of D&T Education

In this episode of the Talking D&T podcast, I interviewed Janine Pavlis, a lecturer at St Mary's University in Twickenham, London, who specialises in primary design and technology education. We discussed the current state of D&T in primary schools, including the statutory requirements, the typical structure of lessons, and the importance of creativity and problem-solving skills.

Janine shared examples of good practice she has observed, such as the integration of computing skills and the use of real-world problems. However, she also highlighted the challenges faced by primary school teachers, including the need for ongoing professional development, the lack of resources, and the pressure to buy into pre-made schemes of work.

We explored the importance of considering primary education when shaping the future of D&T and the need for more research on inclusive practices within the subject. Janine expressed her concern that primary school teachers are not being consulted enough when it comes to making decisions about the D&T curriculum.

Throughout our conversation, we emphasised the significance of aligning teaching with the values and aims of the subject, ensuring that children understand the purpose behind their learning. We also discussed the potential for further research into teachers' motivations and experiences in teaching D&T at the primary level.

(Text generated by AI, edited by Alison Hardy)

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Chapters

• 0:54 Primary Design and Technology Overview
• 17:47 Challenges in Primary Design Education
• 27:30 Challenges and Opportunities in D&T
• 35:47 Teacher Education Values in Design

Transcript

Alison Hardy: 0:55

you're listening to the talking D&Tamp; podcast. I'm Dr Alison Hardy, a writer, researcher and advocate of design and technology education. In each episode I share views, news and opinions about dnt. I've got a return guest on the podcast, um, who's going to come and talk about what's happening in primary design and technology. This is part of the shaping dnt series and I think it's really important that the conversation doesn't just focus on one part. It's very easy for it to focus on one part of what's happening in schools around design and technology. You know design and technology in England is compulsory for all children from year one right the way through to the age of 14. So to give us that perspective, I've got Janine Pavlis to come here and talk about primary D&T. Janine's been on the podcast before, but for those people who haven't heard that episode, shame on them first of all. But secondly, would you like to introduce yourself and say who you are, where you are and what you do?

Janine Pavlis: 2:00

Hi, thanks, alison, for having me on again. I'm really pleased to be here. My name is Janine Pavlis. I am a lecturer at St Mary's University in Twickenham, london, and currently in kind of lecturing in primary education, and I kind of specialize or lead in the design and technology side of things primary based.

Alison Hardy: 2:25

So that's where I am at the moment, but I'm also a doctoral student looking at research in design and technology, which is exciting, and people can listen to the previous episode and find out a little bit more about that, and I might ask you to talk about that as well at some point. So I've asked you on to kind of come and talk about what's happening in primary at the moment. So what's the current situation with regard to design and technology in primary schools? Can you give us a bit of an overview from your perspective?

Janine Pavlis: 2:54

Yeah, I mean just for everybody that might not know a lot about what's going on primary-wise in design and technology. It's a statutory subject. It kind of sets the foundation for the knowledge, understanding and skills that children should acquire in design and technology, for the knowledge, understanding and skills that children should acquire in design and technology. And the national curriculum itself for primary D&T just provides the guidelines for what should be taught for each key stage. So we've got key stage one, which is ages five to seven, and key stage two, ages seven to 11. Um, so typically it involves activities such as designing, making and evaluating products using that range of materials and tools.

Janine Pavlis: 3:41

Um, and we have, you know, units of work. In a way we kind of have roughly structured ourselves around these units of work, like structures and mechanisms. Textiles is a popular one, cooking and nutrition are incredibly important and more. But they're the main ones that we've kind of established and I would say that the main kind of skills that we want to try and make sure that are being developed within primary education is that creativity and problem solving ability. Um, very practical, that's what it should be. Very practical subject um, we do kind of encourage that integration with other subjects at primary um. We're big on cross-curricular learning um, so it does emphasize this in the national curriculum for primary dnt. So it talks about science, maths, computing and art and that kind of cross-curricular pedagogical practices that should be happening across these subjects um, I do believe and I can talk about this later I do believe that this interdisciplinary approach does help children make connections between these areas of learning and it just makes D&T a bit more exciting if you're finding it hard to teach it discreetly which I'll talk about later on as well, I think.

Janine Pavlis: 5:07

So, assessment wise, just to make it really clear to everybody, just in case you didn't know, but in primary education, assessment for D&T is really just kind of formative assessment that a teacher would do within the classroom. We don't have an actual summative assessment at the end of the year. That is just well. You do have the key stage two sats, but that hasn't, that isn't including dnt. So that's where we stand um with most foundation stuff. We're all foundation subjects um. So that's just to give you an overall kind of look at what dnt is like in primary education um. I hope that helps to kind of, you know, set the scene, yeah, that sort of set the scene, just in case, some people have not stepped into primary school for a long time, so that's where we're at.

Alison Hardy: 6:03

So where you've seen really good practice in primary D&T, what are you seeing? What does it look like?

Janine Pavlis: 6:10

Well, I'm seeing a lot now that I'm in higher education and I get to do this wonderful job of being a link tutor, going into lots of schools to see my trainees doing their placements. This gives me the opportunity to really have a kind of nose around schools. Find out what's happening with D&T is great, and often I'm asking the students to showcase a D&T lesson to me and you know, go on, go out of your comfort zone and when I come in to observe, you do a D&T lesson or take on some of the planning and really I actually want them to get back to me and tell me what's going on in the schools. We do so within my, within my sessions, my lectures I do at St Mary's. We teach through these three different kind of um, a structure within D&T and I and that kind of you investigating and evaluating those products. So, so, starting with the IEA, so the children are looking at previous products, products that are around now, and really getting involved with what they're made of, what could be right with them, what could be wrong with them, what could we do to improve them. And really going into that, six key principles. We should be using those. You know the purpose, how it functions.

Janine Pavlis: 7:36

I want to see that, prior to the children um doing any kind of practical task almost, I mean, this is kind of the the initial stages of them beginning to problem solve um work out what they like and don't like, what work out things that are really important around dnt and those six key principles that um I think were written in 2013 by the dnt expert group. They were they're being used a lot, right um, so some schools are, you know, making clear links to those principles. Then they move on to focus task, which I think is brilliant because it is just specifically focusing on a skill and it's not forgetting that actually, d&t is incredibly skills-based. We can't forget that. It's about picking things up and doing and making mistakes and trial and error and prototyping, and it's a chance for the children to do that prior to even designing a product.

Janine Pavlis: 8:39

And so when they learn this new skill, be it something to do with textiles, it could be sewing, it could be kneading some dough in cooking, it could be just doing kind of like drawing pin and paper to create a mechanism things like that, just to practice then helps them develop when it comes to their design process. So what I see is when I come in to see, say, the design part, a teacher has told me that this is their lead up to it. It's not their first lesson. When I see that the designing of a product is their first lesson, quite often it's not. The design isn't as good, rather than when they've had all the kind of investigating of products, their skills have been developed prior to then the design, you can really see a difference. So then they design, they make, and then they can, very importantly, evaluate the product.

Janine Pavlis: 9:37

So that kind of structure and a really clear six-week unit of work, which is what we what we work with usually, because that's about half term. That's what I see as being quite a good structure to a primary design and technology lesson and the connections to that real world problems. So if they could also do all of that and connect it to a real world problem, it just shines and you can really see the children absolutely understanding what design and technology is I suppose also then, alongside that, you're seeing in primary that there's progression across the years.

Alison Hardy: 10:21

Then, um, if they're, if they're doing good dnt, you're seeing their dnt capability grow and their awareness of how technology works is developed impacts on them.

Janine Pavlis: 10:35

And, yeah, absolutely so at the beginning of key stage one, you're you're doing exactly that. You're seeing how you can develop the technological world. And then, yeah, it does, it advances as you go through to year six. I saw the other day a class just finishing making. It was a nightlight on a timer. Now I've seen night lights being made, you know, and the user and purpose is, you know, this is for me when I go to bed and I want to read a book and you only want the little light on in the in the corner. Um, great, I've seen that. But they were really making some good decisions with how they were going to make this light work. So linking to um, a crumble board in which they had looked at in computing, right, and then they were using that to control the light and things like that were. You know that, again, that interdisciplinary approach was just, it was wonderful to see and actually, the children. I thought, gosh, the children aren't going to know what they're doing. But no, it's because I don't know what I'm doing.

Janine Pavlis: 11:47

The children know what they're actually doing and they they take to it so easily, um, and that kind of the planning of that was completed between the D&T and the computing lead and it was just so wonderful to see in action. So, yeah, that technology and they're seeing that actually this is what would be done in a real world situation. But I have also seen kind of the simple circuits still being used and they're really valuable. Let's not say that that's not good enough. That's still great, you know, and that linked science they're brilliant. I'm still seeing that too. I saw someone making an operations board. You remember those, the game. My colleague and I took on um inspiration from that and started doing a steady hand machine, you know, and you can still use those simple circuits for things like that. So that's always really really good. But that integration of kind of really complex computing skills was fantastic to observe.

Alison Hardy: 12:45

So if that's what's good, what are the challenges then?

Janine Pavlis: 12:50

I don't even know where to start, but I think OK. So let's start with the thing that came into my head straight away, which is, I think, the need for teacher training and professional development to continue. After they've been with me, it's all well and good the teacher training that's going on at the moment in the UK. What I'm seeing at the moment is St Mary's, and I'm going to plug us here. We do at primary stage, we do allow our students to really specialize in the foundation area, which makes them almost developing experts in that area if they're doing the BA, primary education, and we, we, yes, we kind of shine because we do that. But we're seeing universities, yeah, really less, less and less of those foundation subjects are happening. So you may even get just one one two-hour lecture on design and technology and so so. So it's actually imperative that that professional development has to continue. Now I don't know whether I'm just being an old fogey, but when I started training as being a teacher and then my, as it was an NQT at the time I remember going into schools and look and networking with other teachers so much more, and we used to do these local authority kind of network meetings and we used to sit together, share planning, talk about kind of powerpoints, even just even say, oh, here's my email address. Let's just share resources and just gain knowledge from other people. Now things have happened since then. For example, covid and I know for an example within my area and the local authority within my area. A lot of funding has been taken away from them. There isn't um half as much network meetings now and if they are, they're all kind of online, which for me, dnt. That doesn't. That doesn't work. It should be a practical. It should be everyone getting together deciding that actually they need more help in something. Well, let's do it. Which I talk about in the last podcast with you, which is what I've tried to do, is build workshops around the area to try and get teachers engaged in doing that.

Janine Pavlis: 15:08

Yes, so with that lack of professional development happening, what's going wrong is that teachers in primary, we're not specialists in D&T, we're not specialists in art or English or maths. We have to know all the subjects up to that in that primary level and and so we need to have a foundational knowledge of all of it, and my worry is that we're not getting it now with what we're doing. So you know, companies coming in and kind of saying that you know, this is what dnt should look like. It worries me because we're not doing it right now.

Janine Pavlis: 15:46

So why are we now moving towards looking at kind of engineering? It's just going to frighten the life out of primary school teachers. I struggle to get them to do get that wood and just start cutting with a junior hacksaw. Um, so I I think at the crux of it is kind of building these hubs again where we can connect and do more face to face. So that's the first thing that comes into my head, that that's what's wrong. But that's what I miss the most, which is why I'm trying to help at a local level.

Alison Hardy: 16:22

It's not much, but it's something, yeah, and time and time again, the comment seems to be around. You know, teacher support, teacher development teaching retention.

Janine Pavlis: 16:31

Yes, I mean absolutely, and a bit of my research is in. You know the underlying aims of my research, for my doctoral project is about trying to look at retaining teachers and just why do they not want to continue?

Janine Pavlis: 16:48

and I mean, if we're going to start changing I mean, I'm talking about just dnt here, but really I have my hat on for all of the subjects here as a primary school teacher.

Janine Pavlis: 16:57

But if we start changing things for dnt and we start making these advancements to things, that which oh gosh, I'm gonna I've got to be in my bonnet now if if we're going to start telling primary school teachers that they've got to start teaching primary age children this, that and the other, when actually what has been raised as as something we should be teaching hasn't actually been thought about by any primary school teachers at all. It just worries me that no one's actually taking primary school dnt seriously. I haven't been asked and I'd say I'm quite leading in design and technology at the moment. I'm upcoming, I'm trying, but no one's asking me my opinion on what should be going on in D&T primary education. I'm on here, so why is no one asking me? And then I read these things which are saying, well, we should be doing this, and the other who says, oh, a lot of primary, a lot of secondary school teachers and companies. And I think were there any primary school teachers involved in this conversation?

Alison Hardy: 18:02

Yeah. So that's the challenge, isn't it it's about? You know, primary school and secondary have equal status. It's that, isn't it it's about. It's the other thing that I find challenging and I don't I don't say this very well, um, I hope somebody else say it much better is yes, when we're planning, you know we're thinking of curriculum, you know we're planning for progression, but it's not always with the end goal of the GCSE, you know it's. It's where they are now as well. They are citizens today, whether they're 5, 9, 11, 14, 16, you know they're citizens today and if part of what we're doing in the subject is enabling them to be active citizens in a democracy, we have to be thinking about where they are now as those citizens, because they're part of society and we're not just teaching them something so that they can then use it when they're in secondary school and in their GCSEs.

Alison Hardy: 19:07

It's about the here and now and then also not just for a test situation, it's beyond.

Janine Pavlis: 19:14

it's them being capable citizens in the future. And D&T, I mean I would say this, but I believe that it has all the skills necessary to make someone into a really, really, truly wonderful citizen, and I think that's where we're going wrong. Is that it just I don't think primary gets a say because we don't have any testing on it. That's it. I mean why?

Janine Pavlis: 19:40

else would no one be asking me or you know other people who are kind of primary consultants. And why are we not being asked? I mean, well, fundamentally it's because it's not important in their eyes.

Alison Hardy: 19:54

Well, I think and I can speak with the arrogance of an ex-D&T teacher from secondary is that I think we know. Yeah, yeah, yeah, do you know what I mean? And I think I had an arrogance of, well, primary teachers don't really know I do. So I need to tell them. And I think you know I'm not saying that all secondary D&T teachers are like me. I mean, this kind of feels like a bit of a confessional. Secondary D&T teachers are like me. I mean it kind of feels like a bit of a confessional. But I look back and I can see that you know that underlying assumption. You know that that I I knew.

Alison Hardy: 20:35

But interestingly, I did for my master's um and this is what kind of made me think differently is I did from one of my master's projects um, I looked at the use of open-ended questions by teachers as a form of facilitating creativity. So I looked at open-ended questions basically as a pedagogical approach, um, that, whether deliberate or not, you know. And and it kind of came down to as simple as I went and watched some primary dnt lessons and I watched some secondary dnt lessons and I counted the number of questions that the teachers asked and categorized them as to whether they were open or closed or whether they were to do with subject or behavior. In primary there were more open-ended questions, and we know that the research says that open-ended questions facilitate creativity. They don't close down. I mean there's lots of things to facilitate creativity.

Alison Hardy: 21:34

In my arrogance as a second teacher, I one of my interpretations of that was that the teachers in primary don't have the subject knowledge to know what the answer is, so they're not doing the leading to an answer that a secondary school teacher would do to enable an outcome. Do you mean a successful outcome? But then that makes me made me question. What do I mean by a successful outcome? Is that a finished product?

Alison Hardy: 21:59

so interesting do you know what I mean? And it it really it really got me just this simple thing of I'm just going to go and count questions, I mean. I mean there was a whole load of reading around beforehand to get to that point of you know why. Why are children, why are children's outcomes in primary school appear to be more creative than they are in secondary? And it might be as well because of testing. You know the testing in secondary and one of the tests is around the outcome. You know the product, and whereas is it in primary that it's more about the process, their development. You know it's all of that, isn't?

Janine Pavlis: 22:40

it. When I I teach my trainees about D&T, I actually do teach them that it's not about the product at the end, it's about the learning process, and we go through that iterative design process over and over again and I think that's because of a few things. And I think that's because of a few things Resources are tight. We don't have access to the resources that secondary do, and yet we are required to do a fair amount of product making. But I don't see how, you know you could have 60, 90 in a year group and we're thinking how many, you know, how many pieces of wood do we need to buy? Okay, we can't afford it, so they're going to have to share. So now we're going to have to do this and you are literally thinking like that. The budget is tight.

Janine Pavlis: 23:42

So sometimes I say, just make a prototype, sustainably. Make a prototype. You, you know, out of paper or something. But actually that's why it's so important to get that structure correct. So the children being able to investigate and evaluate the current products doesn't usually take up many resources. Just some time, um, whether they bring in products from home or they go to a local mechanics to see how a car you know, how the chassis works in a car, I don't know. So doing things like that is fine.

Janine Pavlis: 24:13

And then learning about the skill yes, some resources, and then creating a prototype by the end of it is what we kind of try and I try and advocate for, because when you ask teachers to do a final product, I just feel that they kind of freeze because they say, well, we haven't got, we haven't got money for it. So I think, yeah, from what you've just said, um, in primary, I'd like to think it's more about that kind of the design process and I I think this is good because actually, if we're doing this correctly, it will mean that the transition from Key Stage 2 to Key Stage 3 will be so strong. And this is where I think then, in Key Stage 3 and Key Stage 4, you will get more and more uptake for GCSE and A-levels. If that's what they're thinking of, if that really is their aim and that's where they're, well, why aren't you including the people who actually begin the subject? You know, and that's sorry I've gone back, gone into a loop there, but it's- no, it's okay.

Janine Pavlis: 25:20

It's okay. I just feel like it would be so important to get our our say, our view, and may make some of the primary school teachers yeah, it might. If we're being considered and actually we can show them some research where, oh, by the way, 20 primary school teachers were picked to give their view on it, I think more people would sit up and pay attention to it.

Janine Pavlis: 25:44

And they are Well us. We were listened to. That's brilliant, instead of research that's been given to them and say, oh, look at this new kind of revised plan. Oh, okay, who led it? Oh well, no one in primary led it.

Alison Hardy: 26:04

It doesn't sit well with me, you don't have anyone there yeah, and it leads to a misunderstanding or an anecdotal understanding of what primary is and what child development is at that point compared to child development you know 11 and into their teenage years. So you've talked a little bit about what you're doing, you know, with the hub, you know, and kind of bringing people together and trying to create that space for sharing. You've talked a little bit about what can be done. Is there anything else that you think can be done to address some of the challenges in primary?

Janine Pavlis: 26:40

D&T you think can be done to uh address some of the challenges in primary dnt. What's happening at the moment is I'm going into schools and seeing that people are buying into schemes of work and uh-huh, there are about four schemes of work I see kind of just floating around around and I think this is an issue. Um, now I within and I'm happy to say that I use, as I use, something, but I use the association. Uh, I like, I love the D&T association. I think I've done a great job and they actually in the past and still do, kind of listen to primary education uh experts to create what they created within um their schemes of work, that they produce projects on a page. I I use that because it gives you what it is. Is what I like about it? Is it kind of it offers enough information on areas of primary learning without taking away the teacher's creative control.

Janine Pavlis: 27:44

What we as wonderful primary school teachers are so good at doing, which is that creativity and the planning of that. It hasn't been stolen from us and that's why it's good. And so what I do is I take it and I say how can we make this ours? How can we do this so that it's specific to our class, to our area and location that we're in, because that makes a huge difference, yes, and the children's previous learning and experience of anything to do with D&T. How can we amend and adjust and make these adaptations?

Janine Pavlis: 28:25

But what I've seen with buying into schemes of work that cost a lot of money, is that you know, there's full planning of units ready to go, full PowerPoints ready to go, pre-completed videos ready to go, full PowerPoints ready to go, pre-completed videos ready to go. And the only issue is is that we don't have any say in what we do with this. And I get it, you know, but isn't that fantastic? Because I don't have to spend ages planning. The time that I said that I was, you know, I had so much restriction with, I've got no time to do anything. So you know, srt have just dumped this on my desk and I'm gonna go. Yes, please, I like this.

Janine Pavlis: 29:07

The only issue is that we're de-skilling, we are more and more being de-skilled in these areas, because we're just being asked to kind of and I will admit, the other day I did watch someone just literally stop and start a video. I won't say the company, but it was a stop start video and that was the only resource for that one lesson in DMT. Now, to me that doesn't sit well. Actually the video wasn't too bad, but that teacher well, anyone could have just been doing a stop and start, and that's what worries me. Like are we? But is this because there is a lack of networks and hubs and just coming together? And would we need these schemes if everyone was just kind of coming together and looking at each other's work and networking like we used to? I'm not sure, but it really does get pushed on us. Well, why don't you buy into this? Why don't you buy into?

Alison Hardy: 30:02

this. It's as ongoing tension, as it were, about teacher workload, and so you can see why schools are saying, well, we'll just buy this, that'll help, and you think, yeah, but what you've taken away from me then is the very thing that I brought. What I want you to take away from me is the admin, the organization, the routine stuff, so that actually I can do what you're paying me to do and you're paying me a good salary to do it. Do you really want to pay me money to set my room out, to collect books in, to do routine stuff? I mean, we all have to do I call it kitchen stuff. We all have to do kitchen stuff. I mean, we all have to do, I call it kitchen stuff. We all have to do kitchen stuff.

Alison Hardy: 30:42

But actually teachers are paid. You know, I can hear some teachers saying I've not paid that brilliantly, but in comparison to some things, they're paid and they're recognised for their professionalism, their expertise, their training, their study, their degrees and all of that, their degrees and all of that. Now I can understand where schools don't have a dnt specialist. This can be seen as a, as a good win, you know. But it's then how do we? How do we and I'm talking about people like me and you who are involved in teacher education, teacher development how do we support and develop primary school teachers in? Yeah, okay, I'm using this off the shelf stuff, but how can I critically engage with it?

Janine Pavlis: 31:26

yes, exactly rather than just actually, more and more of my content is turning into that. Uh, it's turning into. Okay, I've got a scheme of work here. What do I do? We're not just going to leave it, are you? Because? And then I give them case studies. Now, well, I've got 31 in my class. You know, six have this need, one has this need, and give. I give them these scenarios that are so realistic and I say to them if you just left that scheme of work like that, where what, who's, who's accessing this learning? Well, actually only a few really are accessing this learning yeah, it's just a video I mean think, think about it.

Janine Pavlis: 32:03

You've got so many children in there, you wouldn't actually access that video yeah so what could we have done to made it so? We're looking at those adaptations all the time, but actually something that I wanted to bring up.

Janine Pavlis: 32:15

Uh, this is something that was really lacking and more research needs to be done around inclusive practices within dnt. Um, sorry, I've kind of that took me to a sidestep there. It is an interest of mine and I have sometimes. I mean, I'm doing, I really like what I'm doing for my doctorate at the moment and I'm focusing 100 of my attention into that piece of research right now. But I but I know that the research I'm doing in my doctorate is just it's catapulting me into other areas eventually. I know this is just the beginning and I feel like this is going to lead me towards looking at send more. It's seriously an interest of mine the amount of schools in this local area that I live in who have said we, we don't touch D&T because we have absolutely no idea how to implement it, but there is nothing out there, there's limited research on it, and I think that's really important because, more and more we're having mainstream classrooms and the integration of children with SEND and absolutely should be.

Janine Pavlis: 33:23

But you know that means that learning for all has to take place and D&T can be quite a scary subject even for even if everybody is sitting there thinking I can do this, it's still scary, but we don't have the equipment or the expertise to know what we're doing when we need to make those adaptations. So I want to do more around that.

Alison Hardy: 33:46

Actually, so Louise Davis, who now runs the Food Teacher Centre. She did a book about working with children with special educational needs in D&C, but it's quite an old book now and you know there's no disrespect to Louise. I mean, she wrote that book with there's very little research done, you know. So the fact that she pulled that together is all credit and I think it's a really good starting point for people.

Janine Pavlis: 34:17

But but there's, there's nobody's really built on that, or there's been some few kind of reports written, uh, especially you know, specifically primary ones. I know the tda did one um 2019. I want to say but but again, it, it there's. There wasn't a lot of you know, really uh good research that was backing it up, I think. I think it needs to be that there's a huge amount of research that goes into it.

Janine Pavlis: 34:45

And it's just something that I've noticed because, you know, if we're really struggling with D&T and teaching it, we're really going to struggle with D&T and teaching it with children with SEND. So we've got to, yeah, yeah, I think that's got to be a real think, that's got to be a real, it's got to be really thought about yeah, it's not just in that area. I mean I'm starting off broadly, I've gone into kind of motivating, um motivation.

Janine Pavlis: 35:14

So all of my research is around kind of a lived experience of um dnt. So looking at kind of what you did in the past and how that has influenced you in the present, I'm looking at that link and what motivates you to teach dnt at primary, just because I want to just establish what the link is there and I think that's just the start really. I mean it's just it is just the beginning of a lot of research that needs to happen oh, ian, I can't remember what his surname is.

Alison Hardy: 35:47

He's not a D&T person. He wrote a book, ian Mentor. At one point he was the president for the British Education Research Association, for Bira. He wrote a book with colleagues at Oxford, um for the publishers, critical publishing, who do quite a lot of books around teacher education. They're aimed at teacher educators and one of the early books I think it's got a green cover. Don't quote me on that.

Alison Hardy: 36:13

Um must have been pre-2016, so me and Sarah using it and we were still teaching in the city. But we, yeah, I'm trying to picture where we use this book. And he had an activity I actually have just done a video about this activity, um, where you get student teachers to draw around their hand and to use that as a a thing to kind of attach five experiences to that you had when you were at school to do with design and technology that have then shaped, um, your view of the subject that you maybe didn't realize. Um. So, yeah, really good book, really good book. Then really good, bite, good, good bite-sized books, those. But yeah, my, my whole research around the value of design and technology. You know, I look at people's history in the subject, their own personal experiences, their motivations, and a podcast is out with Phil Jones, who was also at the PAC conference. We were talking before we hit record and that was talking about students' motivations in D&T.

Janine Pavlis: 37:16

Absolutely. I mean, the research you've done in the values of dnt has definitely inspired what my thinking around this. So thank you for that allison. I know it's always ongoing and I'm always reading everything that you're bringing to the table. So that's it does. It does really help. It does help and it you know the research you do, even at secondary and higher education, it's it's still really beneficial. And yeah, and you appreciate primary and you've had it twice. So thank you, I do. I really appreciate it.

Alison Hardy: 37:53

Yeah, I've just written a book chapter that's coming out, I'm hoping, later this year, um, which is about developing the dnt curriculum, and I've put together a proposal that we have criteria for developing. Let's treat it as a design project and one of the criteria is is this newly proposed content? Can it be taught in the whole range of settings? Can it be taught in primary, secondary, pupil referral units, special educational needs schools? Yeah, is it appropriate?

Janine Pavlis: 38:24

and that's so important. I couldn't, I couldn't agree more with that agency.

Alison Hardy: 38:29

I didn't think I was um, I didn't, I didn't consider it so much until I went into schools and saw teachers deflated, yeah, and then I think part of that is around that their values, that their value of the subject doesn't match with the values that are implicit about what the nature of the subject is in those materials that they've been expected to teach, which then causes them an internal stress and tension which they don't know how to articulate because they may not be aware that that's. That's part of the issue and sarah would talk about from her research that you know, teacher agency and not having it that that was so well put, alison.

Janine Pavlis: 39:10

What you just said. That I think that is it. It's that internal kind of struggle you know with. Well, why am I doing it? Why am I teaching this? What is If it's not? If I can't see what I've been taught and their values? Through that kind of planning that they've given me, I've lost. And teachers go into teaching with values, kind of they're trying to uphold their values that they've learned through their teacher training, that they've had. And I just feel that by taking away quite a lot of what we're asking them to do within our training, I'm sure lots of teachers are confused.

Alison Hardy: 39:48

They're you know you know, worried and go back to what you were just saying about what motivates and if it doesn't align with their values and if they can't articulate it to the children. You know, we know that from the research, from the evidence, that if children can't engage with the why you know, then they don't have that motivation. So those motivations can be intrinsic as well as extrinsic. It doesn't have to be all because I enjoy it. There's lots of extra external motivations as well. Um, but yeah, for teachers coming to the lessons with that feeling already it's beautiful.

Janine Pavlis: 40:27

Well, it's not. It's not beautiful, but it just proves my point really, really well. When I I observe a lesson and a child puts up their hand and boldly says why are we doing this? And I think gosh, that's horrible. But I sit there, I'm observing, I think gosh, well, that that is absolutely it. Why are they doing this?

Alison Hardy: 40:49

because I don't know.

Janine Pavlis: 40:50

And actually, where was the story? There was no story here and actually they don't. They can't put this into context, but there is such a good context to this and I just want to go up and say, well, actually you know this and I just want to almost you know, yell it so that they can see that this is so valuable. Yes, to actually hear them say something like what yeah what is the point?

Alison Hardy: 41:14

yes, because that's a conversation I was having, I think, on the podcast, but I was having people quite often is when we don't focus on what the aims are of the national curriculum generally, what we don't focus on what the aims are of the subject, what's the goal, what we're trying to, and therefore, what are we teaching that fits in enabling those children, yeah, to achieve that goal or develop towards that goal.

Janine Pavlis: 41:36

So, yeah, well, we've covered some ground, like I could just keep talking, but yeah, no, absolutely, we've covered some ground. I feel like I could just keep talking, but yeah, no, absolutely we've covered a bit.

Alison Hardy: 41:43

I know, I know we have looking at the time and I know we both spoke before we hit record, that we both had other things to to go to, so we had to watch the time and let's keep talking about these ideas and let's see if anybody picks them up and and uh, because this can't just be one person who develops this or thinks about these things no, absolutely.

Janine Pavlis: 42:03

And if anyone out there is going to listen to this all the way through to the end and not get annoyed with me, um, if, if they do, just I, I'm here to talk about primary education. I do have a huge passion for it because I do believe in the subject. Um, yeah, so include me in some discussions, because that would be really, really good we'll put your details in the show notes.

Alison Hardy: 42:29

Thanks ever so much, janine. Thank you, bye. I'm Dr Alison Hardy and you've been listening to the Talking D&T podcast. If you enjoyed the, then do subscribe, on whatever platform you use, and do consider leaving a review, as it does help others find the podcast. I do the podcast because I want to support the D&T community in developing their practice, so please do share the podcast with your D&T community. If you want to respond to something I've talked about or have an idea for a future episode, then either leave me a voice memo via SpeakPipe or drop me an email. You can find details about me, the podcast and how to connect with me on my website, dralisonhardycom. Also, if you want to support the podcast financially, you can become a patron. Links to SpeakPipe, patreon and my website are in the show notes. Thanks for listening.