Shaping the Future of Design and Technology Education: An In-depth Conversation with Louise Attwood from AQA

Curious about how exam boards shape design and technology education? In this episode of Talking D&T, I sit down with Louise Attwood, Subject Support Lead for D&T at AQA. With eight years at the exam board and a background in teaching, Louise offers unique insights into the world of D&T qualifications.

We explore the intricate process of curriculum development and assessment, uncovering how AQA works with the Department for Education, Ofqual, and teachers to shape D&T education. Louise reveals the challenges of balancing content breadth with depth, and how recent reforms have impacted the subject.

A key takeaway is the importance of teacher involvement in qualification development. Louise shares multiple avenues for educators to contribute, from focus groups to feedback forms. We also discuss the delicate balance between political agendas and educational needs in curriculum design.

For D&T teachers in England and beyond, this episode offers valuable understanding of the forces shaping our subject. As you listen, consider how you might engage more actively in these processes. How could your experiences inform future curriculum changes?

Whether you're crafting lessons or influencing policy, this conversation will enrich your perspective on D&T education. Share your thoughts with colleagues and consider reaching out to exam boards or Ofqual with your insights.

Let's keep this important dialogue going! How will you contribute to shaping the future of D&T education?

Acknowledgement:
Some of the supplementary content for this episode was crafted with the assistance of Claude, an AI language model developed by Anthropic. While the core content is based on the actual conversation and my editorial direction, Claude helped in refining and structuring information. This collaborative approach allows me to provide you with concise, informative, and engaging content to complement each episode.

1. AQA
2. Department for Education (DfE) 
3. Ofqual (Office of Qualifications and Examinations Regulation) 
4. Link to register interest in discussing the future of AQA D&T specifications
5. AQA Professional Development page

Chapters

• 0:06 Exploring Design and Technology Education
• 8:46 Influencing Curriculum and Assessment Development
• 24:48 Quality Control in Curriculum Development
• 34:07 Supporting D&T Community Through Podcast

Transcript

Alison Hardy: 0:06

You're listening to the Talking D&T podcast. I'm Dr Alison Hardy, a writer, researcher and advocate of design and technology education. In each episode I share views, news and opinions about D&T. So this week's episode I am with Louise Atwood and we've met several times, but I think it's now getting to be more times that we've met online than you know in different meetings and face to face. But it's good to have louise here. Louise is going to contribute to the shaping design and technology series but give a very different perspective around examinations and exam boards to kind of help us all think about how the role that exam boards plays influences or reflects what's happening in the curriculum and what that process of changes. So, louise, before we go any further, can you would like to introduce yourself, say who you are, where you are and what you do?

Louise Attwood: 1:05

say who you are, where you are and what you do. Yeah, sure, um. So my name is Louise Atwood. I've worked for AQA for about eight years now. Um, so I am the subject lead, subject support lead for design, technology, engineering, food and, more recently, computer science as well. Um, and um. And yeah, I guess the role really is about working with customers, so having kind of contact with customers to ensure that we understand what they want from our specifications, being able to support them in delivering those specifications. So there's lots of kind of bits and pieces of training and support that we offer that I look after, and also there's a lot to do with kind of working with key stakeholders and understanding the wider subject landscape.

Alison Hardy: 1:55

So it's quite a complex role, then, in terms of bringing all of that together.

Louise Attwood: 1:59

Yeah, it is, and actually one part that I've missed out is about the kind of internal consultancy piece, because obviously, being the D&T expert in inverted commas, um, uh, in within AQA, um, if there are certain things that we want to change or incidents that come up, then part of it is about being the kind of voice of D&T within AQA as well.

Alison Hardy: 2:24

Right, OK. So what brought you into the role? Because you were teaching beforehand, weren't you?

Louise Attwood: 2:29

Yeah, so I did about 12 years teaching as a design technology teacher, mainly product design, but did bits and pieces of other material areas as they were all split up at the time. And then alongside my teaching I did quite a bit of work with the exam board, working as an associate, so bits and pieces of marking and moderating and that kind of thing, and then also writing some questions and being involved in the specification development for the recent reform of qualifications. So that's kind of that kind of got me into the AQA mindset and I really loved that work.

Louise Attwood: 3:12

I mean, I know well, I always go on about how good it is in terms of professional development for teachers to do and it sounds a little bit disingenuous that coming from someone who works for AQA, but I genuinely believe that that is one of the best ways that you can, you know, improve your practice in the classroom, and certainly in terms of alignment with the assessment, because obviously there's other areas as well that you need to keep trained up in. But I think that's a really, really important development opportunity. But I just I really like the kind of geeky, nitty-gritty stuff around assessment and, yeah, I was really interested in that, so that that's why I went down this path really.

Alison Hardy: 4:04

Yeah, I got involved in marking um for that very reason. I remember going along when there used to be a big dnt conference at the NEC and going along. And so then what was the ed excel stand? We used to do the a level with them, crikey, when I was back down teaching in Gloucestershire, and I went along with some questions and people who were listening who of my age would recognise the A level 9-1-1-0, the spec number or the syllabus number as it was, and they immediately said the best way of getting involved, of understanding it better, is to get involved in marketing and moderation.

Louise Attwood: 4:39

Yeah, and that's what it really is yeah, I mean, that's my experience, certainly, and I think a lot of other teachers would agree with that I did actually work in a school where they used to pay you a bonus for doing it because they recognized yeah, they recognized how important it was in terms of professional development. And, yeah, I really promote that because I think teachers work so, so hard.

Louise Attwood: 5:04

I mean that's the understatement of the year and to take on extra marking and things like that towards the end of the year, when things are hopefully starting to calm down in a few, to at least take a breath and and potentially start planning for the future year. It's a lot to take that on and so it's nice to have that recognized by the school that they're. They're gaining benefit from it as well.

Alison Hardy: 5:27

Yeah, that's that's significant, particularly when, when you're marking, you get paid anyway to then, give you a bonus on top. Yeah yeah, I suppose there's a recognition, isn't it? You have to do it in your own time. You can't do it in school. Yeah yeah.

Alison Hardy: 5:39

I remember the best bit of advice I got when I started marking um with the money that I received. They said don't just let it go into your account and be used for everyday things, buy something with it. Um, I used to have it in here, but it's now in my front room. Um, I bought a chair.

Louise Attwood: 5:58

Go on, tell me what chair it's gonna be something fabulous, isn't it it?

Alison Hardy: 6:03

is, it is, it is. I mean, I must have had it now 23 years, that's how long I've had this chair. Um, I'd seen it in a saturday newspaper supplement and when it was in the magazine it was in pink chenille, oh wow. And this woman had this white house, but all the accessories were this shocking pink and the arms were of different heights. So it's like basically a shortened chaise, long so you could sit with your back against the higher arm and your legs over the shorter arm. And I kept looking, I ripped it out and kept it and then it was in Nottingham, a furniture store in Nottingham, and I I went when I worked in Lincolnshire, then a friend, when I went down to Nottingham one Saturday to go shopping and I said if this chair is still for sale, I am going to buy it today that is a great use of that money isn't it, and I didn't get it done in pink chenille.

Alison Hardy: 6:59

At that point I was renting and I thought I want to get it done in something that's a little bit quirky, so I got it covered in like a zebra print and I've still got it in the zebra print. I've had it clean several times. It's now one of the dog's favorite seats, um, but yeah, it's a real statement piece. I love it and you know, when my brother's kids were younger, I remember them all sitting and climbing all over it and me reading stories and it's, yeah, it's my kind of curl up. When I had my ruptured achilles, it was my seat that I sat in because it had lots of space around it. Um, you know, yeah. So, yeah, having a thing that you spend because it's extra work, isn't it? Yeah, you know it's extra work and it's. It's so easy to let all that money just get absorbed into day to day. I mean, I know things have gone up in price and such and it's not. We haven't all got that luxury. But yeah, my chair is my 910 chair it's a great idea.

Louise Attwood: 7:49

It's a great idea anyway.

Alison Hardy: 7:52

Anyway, I think you pay for holidays as well. I think I went to bangkok one year with it. Oh blimey, there you go. It's all coming back to me what I've done with that money. I can't afford any luxury holidays now.

Louise Attwood: 8:02

I've got a dog anyway to mess up your lovely chair. Yeah, cost me more money anyway, bless him, he's not.

Alison Hardy: 8:09

He's not yet featured this week, but I'm sure he'll appear at some point anyway. Um, so you said you got involved in the most recent specs, so the most recent specs I think people in England will think of the 2017 ones, is that right?

Louise Attwood: 8:23

yeah, yeah, absolutely. So I'm not talking about redevelopments. Obviously I've been involved with that um since I started at AQA, but the kind of whole scale reform um. I was still teaching at the time, um, but I was working as an associate um with AQA to kind of um work out what we were going to do with the subject content that the DfE had had provided. Really.

Alison Hardy: 8:49

So so what's the process? So you? So there's sounds like there's two different parts, because I think I think teachers will find this useful, because I think you know we've got a curriculum review going on at the moment in England and one of the big things that Professor Becky Francis has been tasked to look at is assessment, isn't it? And I saw that OCR have published a report, haven't they, with their comments around that and I'm sure something coming out from AQA and Pearson's as well, and you don't want the exams to be the tail that wags the curriculum dog. I mean, we all know that happens to an extent. But in terms of assessment then and examinations, what's the kind of process you know? You said about the subject content, what, what happens. Can it give us a bit of a run through of that?

Louise Attwood: 9:36

yeah, sure so, um, when the DfE decides that they're going to reform qualifications and in the past we've seen, like in the last example, um, you know, a whole scale reform where all subjects were were reformed at the same time, or, you know, in a couple of um consecutive years, um that's the way it's been done before, but we don't know whether that's going to continue.

Louise Attwood: 10:02

You know, it could be that they pick off odd subjects, which is what the conservative government had started to do and there were a few subjects that started to reform over the last couple of years, um, but yeah, certainly in the past they would um meet with a number of different stakeholders within the design technology um subject, landscape, and they would formulate this subject content, which was a two-page document giving a kind of brief outline of what needs to be covered in, for example, gcse, design and technology. And we would play into that and we like to keep our finger on the pulse as much as possible and be part of the conversations that going on within different subject associations and influential organizations. But essentially it's the Department for Education who, with that consultancy group, decide on that subject content.

Louise Attwood: 11:00

And then after that, that's when we respond to that document, and then after that that's when we respond to that document. So, yeah, our kind of part, our main part to play is, once that document's created, us coming up with a product that teachers would like. You know, we play into the conversations that stakeholders have, but we also and probably even more so than that want to reflect what teachers want out of the qualifications. So they're our customer and we need to make sure that we understand what their needs and wants are for the future of that qualification, whatever it looks like so that's kind of quite interesting.

Alison Hardy: 11:44

So it's the, it's the Department for Education, that kind of come up with the subject content in consultation.

Louise Attwood: 11:51

But it sounds like before then there can be other stakeholders saying to the DfE we think it's time to review the content as well, as it coming from the government to say you can review the content absolutely, and and we at AQA do sometimes speak to government about the fact that we want to reform a qualification, you know, um, but but it's essentially the, the DfE's decision, um, and and sometimes that conversation is bolstered by, you know, a number of people getting together and talking about what they want to see changed, and often the work that I do is about being in the room with those people so that we can make a united voice to government when that opportunity arises, which, you know. We don't know what's going to happen over the next 12 months time, but this certainly seems like a time of opportunity, potentially, yeah.

Alison Hardy: 12:45

So at which point do you see that teachers get involved in influencing or instigating that change? Can they Do they?

Louise Attwood: 12:53

Yeah, so I mean, I think, to be honest, they're constantly involved because, like I said, we're trying to be the voice of teachers, as are other organisations too, when it comes to the reform or redevelopment of a qualification, the reform or redevelopment of a qualification, so all the way through any conversation that we have with teachers, it is really useful to us because we want to reflect that in our conversations with government In a more kind of specific way. There are opportunities, certainly after the government have decided to reform, to get involved in how that looks. Um, and I can, I can run through that um if you like yeah, that'd be really interesting yeah, okay.

Louise Attwood: 13:40

So, like I say, things change each time and we're evolving, so it might look slightly different next time around um.

Louise Attwood: 13:47

But the last time we had subject content um and we were thinking about what to do with it and and how to to create these qualifications, we would hold a stakeholder conference um with all the key stakeholders that we wanted to um have contact with, making sure that we understand what they see as the vision for how that subject content is going to play out. But part of that might be like a HE panel, for example, that might be formed Stakeholder reference group, which is people who are going to receive the students that come out the other end end. So you know um, if we're designing a gcse, we want to know what the a level teachers want um out of the gcse students that are going to end up with them. So we would um meet with that kind of stakeholder reference group and there's opportunities for teachers to volunteer to be part of of groups like that. We would also have um specific focus groups on on different areas of subject content. So we would want to really get into detail about particular areas that the DFA, dfe rather, say they want teaching, and so we might ask specific teachers who have an interest in that particular area to go into depth on on what that might look like.

Louise Attwood: 15:12

Um, and then we have concept testing opportunities. So we would go out to schools or teachers and run past our you know our ideas and say what do you think of this? Um, what could be improved? Um, you know, have we missed anything out? How do you think this would play out in reality? Because, at the end of the day, despite being a teacher myself and working with others in AQA who have been teachers, we're not anymore. So we do rely on teachers to give that kind of frontline knowledge on. You know how that would look when they're in the classroom and then again after that, market testing. So, when it gets to to the later stages, um, asking groups of teachers again to to look at what we've got um in those kind of final stages, look at the specification, maybe the sample assessment material, and give us an idea about you know what their thoughts are and how they think it would work in in the classroom.

Louise Attwood: 16:08

So loads of opportunities there and actually some opportunities even now. So, um, we, like I say, want to have contact with teachers all the time. Um, at the moment, um, I'm running some mat leads, um, uh workshops, um, to try to understand what what teachers want, and mat leads are a great way of doing that because we have obviously a representative of those teachers that can come along and talk to us, but we also want to capture individuals feedback. So there is actually a form which I know from listening to your podcast regularly. You have show notes. I will put that in the show notes, yeah. Yeah, If we can put that in there and then teachers can get in touch and say, yeah, I would love to be a voice in this conversation and we can organise to speak to them.

Alison Hardy: 17:04

That'd be great. That's my next question, oh sorry, no, no no. It's OK If there's a teacher that's not known to you. How do they become known? Does that make sense?

Louise Attwood: 17:14

yeah, yeah, it does, and actually in in this role over the eight years it that's been a real process, because when I first started I didn't really know anyone outside of my very local D&T bubble. Um you, I was just a teacher in a school and sometimes I think you don't see outside of those four walls. Occasionally I'd meet with other teachers in my local area, but I've over the eight years created quite a network now of teachers, but I don't want to just be speaking to the same people all the time. So anyone who wants to get in touch, it would be really, really useful for me to do that.

Alison Hardy: 17:54

Yeah, of course, more than happy. More than happy to do that. So, in terms of their wants, once it's all out there, what sort of support is offered? What's needed? How do you deal with feedback from teachers? It's going on because, yeah, we're, all you know, educationalists we're never a happy bunch of like.

Louise Attwood: 18:14

we've always got an opinion so you mean when the specification's been formed yeah, it's running as is now yeah yeah, I mean, that's the main.

Louise Attwood: 18:24

Well, a big part of of what I do, um, and that is it's a really important part because it informs the next stages. It can be difficult, um, because, um, you know, you can't please everybody in these situations and and there's a lot of difference of opinion um about that we we do, like I say, run regular um groups to to discuss what people want and actually we've got training courses that run regularly as part of our national program. But also we have events that I run every term which are online events and there's always a kind of 20 minute question and answer session in there. Minute question and answer session in there. Often we try to direct the q a to what's been discussed but inevitably say the same issues kind of crop up and and that's really interesting to me. So I want to know these issues.

Louise Attwood: 19:22

Um, you know, some people have a difference of opinion about the material areas merging together. For example, um, some people have a difference of opinion about the percentage of making um in, you know, awarded in in the nea. Um, lots of people have very similar opinions and they crop up all the time and and when we can collate that information and know that everybody is wanting the same thing, or the majority. That's when we can make a really good case to the DfE in the next round of reform for change in that direction.

Louise Attwood: 19:55

Um the the chances of change are different depending on on what we're asking, of course, and sometimes they're limited. Um so there were certain things that we tried really hard for in the last round of reform and were not allowed to change.

Alison Hardy: 20:14

Um, uh, things like the percentage of yeah, I was gonna ask that question, yeah yeah, like the percentage of of the nea.

Louise Attwood: 20:23

So obviously it went from 60 to 50 um and there was a lot of concern from teachers about that.

Alison Hardy: 20:30

That's settled down since, but at the time um we would have liked to have seen 60 percent um nea to remain um I'm conscious I have people listening who aren't from england, so it's a non-examined assessment, what we might have previously called coursework, and that's that's run in lesson time, and it has a limit on the time, doesn't it, I think, for the children allowed to work yeah, I mean it's a guide.

Louise Attwood: 20:57

They can, um, nobody's policing how much time they use, but there's a number of guided learning hours and the NEA is part of that. Um, and they are allowed to take some of the work away from the classroom to do it, but it's, it's all has to be authenticated by the teacher, so the teacher needs to have enough knowledge of the student to know that that's the quality of work they would expect in the classroom as well. So, yeah, it's. I mean I use the term NEA and coursework interchangeably, which is, yeah, naughty, but um, yeah, I mean the same thing yeah so, so that that's one example of something that teachers ask, or used to ask, to be changed.

Alison Hardy: 21:38

What, what else do they ask that that can't be changed, or maybe something that can?

Louise Attwood: 21:43

um, yeah, so well, when we worked with um, ofqual and the DfE on the last round of reform, there was a need from Ofqual to send out context contextual challenges which went out each year, still go out each year First of June. They go live and the idea is that students respond to those contextual challenges each year. Now, originally there was a push for those to go out on the 1st of September and we argued the case against that and we said that teachers need enough time to get themselves together and organize themselves for the summer and so we managed to bring that forward to the 1st of June so sometimes we we can push on things and sometimes we work with the other awarding organisations.

Louise Attwood: 22:37

We're not always, yeah, in direct competition with each other. We work quite closely together to push things that we all agree on, and that was that was one of those things that we managed to get some movement on. Yeah.

Alison Hardy: 22:49

I suppose that's when organizations like the department for education and the off-qual don't necessarily have that connection, um yeah, with schools and with teachers about what the pressures are as well, isn't it?

Louise Attwood: 23:01

yeah, absolutely, and and sometimes it's about the political agenda um you know, we we found in the last round of reform of course there was a very knowledge heavy curriculum that was being pushed through and so a huge amount of subject content went into the the document and that we responded to and a huge amount of rigor in terms of the subject content but breadth of subject content. That potentially has caused problems over the last few years for teachers, um, but that was certainly a political agenda that there was not going to be any movement on yeah, yeah.

Alison Hardy: 23:44

So I'm going to come back to that in a moment. But again, ofqual, what's Ofqual's role and what does Ofqual stand for? What is it? What does it mean?

Louise Attwood: 23:54

yeah, so Ofqual is our regulator, so we can't do anything unless we check with Ofqual that it's, it's okay first, really, and they oversee all kinds of things. They check whether our marking processes are robust. They check whether our qualifications are challenging enough to be awarded a GCSE or an A level, for example. If we want to change something in our specifications, we have to ask Ofqual first. So there are certain things that that need to change and certain things that don't say.

Louise Attwood: 24:29

For example, we had a spelling mistake in our specification. We're allowed to change that, but any kind of content that means that teachers have to change something about their teaching, we would need to to request from Ofqual. They are a big part of the reform process. So once the subject content is written by the DfE and we start to think about how we're going to put that into practice in the form of a specification or specimen assessment materials, etc. We would then come up with a draft version of that and we would send that off to Ofqual. Ofqual look at that specification, the specimen assessment material, the assessment strategy that goes with it, and they review that and then they get back to us and they would say, okay, we, we were fine about these bits not so fine about these.

Louise Attwood: 25:22

We want you to change this they might say the maths is not hard enough in the specimen assessment material. You need to increase the, the rigor in that area. That's just an example. Yeah, we would take that back and then um with the associates that we're working with. So we're always working with practicing teachers and um and also retired teachers who've been teaching design technology for a long time and have a huge amount of experience to come up with these specifications and specimen assessment material. We would review those and send it back to Ofqual and sometimes that can take a few times until we get the rubber stamp of approval and we all go dancing around the office and, yeah, that's exactly what happens. To be honest. Well, I suppose it's.

Alison Hardy: 26:14

It's a good system to have in a way. I'm sure it's very frustrating, but I suppose it holds a standard, doesn't?

Louise Attwood: 26:19

it really yeah, absolutely, and and off quality, are getting the qualifications from all of the awarding organizations at that time. So the hope is that there is a similar level of rigor, um, you know, across those um qualifications. Um, so yeah, I think the intention is that it gives that consistency. Um so, yeah, I mean, we found it obviously, as you can imagine, frustrating in the past. Um, yeah, but you know it, we need to be held account for all of these things, whether it's the writing of the specification or it's the quality of marking or you know any of those things really?

Alison Hardy: 26:56

important. Yeah, yeah. And just then to go back, it's well again, I was thinking when you said about umqual coming and checking. I remember when I was moderating Fred Excel years ago on the 9110. Yeah, somebody came and was going around and came from Ofqual or the equivalents, as it was at that point, just to check, just to check that the processes were all being followed. Yeah, absolutely, you know. If we're saying that you know a one is a one or a nine is a nine, then we've got to be sure, and so the moderators have got to be moderated, haven't they?

Louise Attwood: 27:33

yeah, absolutely, and I think there's there's certain things um that that we would love to change um and teachers often contact us about which actually might also be um. It might, might also be good for them to contact off qual, because um you know I'm thinking, for example, grade boundaries. You know we can work within the limits um in our awarding process.

Louise Attwood: 27:59

That's a whole other podcast to talk about awarding, I think but, um, that process is really complex and is really pinned down um by Ofqual, um, rightly so. You know, we can't just create grade boundaries wherever we feel like, um, and I think sometimes it would be good for teachers to understand that, so that if there are issues, you know, for example, a specification you think why are those grade boundaries always so much higher? Um, you know, for example, a specification, you think why are those grade boundaries always so much higher? Um, you know, write to off, call about it and and put some pressure on there because, uh, we can forward on views and we do consistently, but there is only so much we can do yeah, yeah, I think people maybe people listening, teachers listening aren't necessarily aware about where they have got power or where they can engage and they've got, they've got a legitimacy to be questioning.

Alison Hardy: 28:52

Yeah, and there's different organisations. That was kind of one of the reasons I wanted you on was because I thought you know we have curriculum, we have content, we think about how it's shaped, but equally, it's got to work with the whole process of having exams that assess that and we know that they're valid, they're reliable and that they're equitable, they're accessible and but also appropriate. So, yeah, I think the exam system has a huge amount of influence on what happens in school. So you've got to have all of those conversations that's really interesting to hear about how much talking and negotiation and listening and response that people can make and knowing that teachers can actually contact off-call direct and say why is it like this or this isn't working, or whatever yeah, I think that the biggest bugbear is the amount of content isn't there, I think yeah, absolutely, and that's certainly something in the next round to perform that we would be pushing to see change on um.

Louise Attwood: 29:50

So yeah, I mean, I think most subjects feel the same way. I think, you know, the curriculum was massively overloaded last time um and yeah, who knows what will happen in the future, but hopeful that there might be some some change there yeah, I think for me.

Alison Hardy: 30:07

I think for me, when I look at the content, it's, it's a level of detail and not and where, the structure. If the structure was different of how the knowledge and the content was detailed, then there wouldn't necessarily need to be all of that detail. That that that um, knowledge rich doesn't necessarily mean about the amount of knowledge, does it?

Alison Hardy: 30:27

that's the that's where it kind of came to, wasn't it? It's awful, and the government kind of was. It's about the amount of knowledge you think? No, it's not about the amount, it's the organization of it in some ways absolutely, and I think that that's really, really key.

Louise Attwood: 30:43

You know also the question of what is knowledge, you know again another podcast, but actually allowing students to have the time to experiment with stuff and take risks and, and you know, go into depth on certain issues, um, and and potentially fail when they're trying to create things, all of that, I would say, is enhancing their knowledge hugely but might not be giving the breadth of knowledge um that's necessary for this current specification and unfortunately, I think teachers feel like their hands are tied a little bit with that because they they have to cover the breadth of knowledge for the assessment um but it's difficult to stop students when they're going down a really great rabbit hole about something because you think I haven't got time.

Louise Attwood: 31:30

Yeah, yeah yeah, and I think that's been.

Alison Hardy: 31:34

That's been. One of the criticism is about there's been breadth and not depth. Yeah, yeah, yeah and so our, our child. Is children's design and technology capability increasing? Possibly not. It's, it's, it's. It's increasing at a slower rate because of the breadth of of knowledge that they're having to learn, because that's that's in the exam specifications, that's come from off qual. But the people who are involved in writing that were doing that under a particular government who had a particular view of things. So maybe, maybe, maybe, maybe things will change.

Alison Hardy: 32:11

Yeah but yeah, I've done a lot of I've done a lot of reading around of what the research says about what knowledge is in design and technology. So, as you say, that's a whole. That's a whole other podcast. But no, yeah, no, I think that's been. That's been really helpful.

Alison Hardy: 32:24

I think I give some people who aren't involved in exams, um, an insight, and I'm conscious that I have primary school teachers listening and people from abroad who might be thinking, crikey, this is, this is not for us.

Alison Hardy: 32:36

But actually I think it does give a context about helping to understand why there are certain pressures happening in schools in England particularly. It's quite similar in Wales, scotland and Northern Ireland. But, um, I think that that gives an insight and maybe teachers might listen and think, actually this isn't just about thinking about what happens in my classroom, but taking what happens in my classroom and sort of having a bit of a voice, more of a voice about that outside, to see if we can influence change around that curriculum and understanding that process would be really helpful yeah, absolutely, and just also to to kind of reaffirm that that, um, we really enjoy teachers um coming to us and talking to us and giving us feedback, and part of my job is to receive that feedback and to, to you know, push it on um, so I I'm really grateful to to get any of that information and so, yeah, yeah, that would be great.

Louise Attwood: 33:31

No thanks, very much thanks for your time today.

Alison Hardy: 33:33

Louise.

Louise Attwood: 33:33

I think we're on about half an hour, aren't we, which is almost a 5k run.

Alison Hardy: 33:40

I think you said that you listen to the podcast when you go running yeah, yeah, that's ideal.

Louise Attwood: 33:44

That's the optimum time for uh, for a podcast, in my opinion.

Alison Hardy: 33:48

Right, okay, well, let's let's end that there, then that's perfect for your next run I won't be listening to it I'm dr allison hardy and you've been listening to the talking dnt podcast.

Alison Hardy: 34:07

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