Talking D&T
Talking D&T is a podcast about design and technology education. Join me, Dr Alison Hardy, as I share news, views, ideas and opinions about D&T. I also talk about D&T with teachers, researchers and academics from the D&T community.
The views on this podcast are my own and of those I am interviewing and are not connected to my institution. Much of the content is work in progress. As well as talking about D&T, I use it to explore new ideas and thoughts related to D&T education and my research, which are still embryonic and may change. Consult my publications for a reliable record of my considered thoughts on the topic featured in this podcast.
Podcast music composed by Chris Corcoran (http://www.svengali.org.uk)
Talking D&T
From Circuits to Creativity: Reimagining D&T Resources
In this episode, I chat with Kevin Spurr and Becky Forshaw from Kitronik, a company supplying D&T resources to schools. Kevin, a co-founder with 20 years of experience, and Becky, a former primary teacher, offer unique perspectives on the evolving landscape of D&T education.
We explore how Kitronik develops products and resources balancing engagement, affordability, and curriculum relevance. Kevin shares insights into their manufacturing process and adapting to changing technologies, while Becky discusses creating flexible teacher resources.
We discuss the shift in electronics teaching in secondary schools and Kitronik's new 'Crafting Code' project for primary schools, blending coding with hands-on making.
This conversation highlights the interplay between curriculum, resources, and teacher expertise in shaping D&T education. It raises questions about supporting teachers' subject knowledge and adapting to technological changes while maintaining D&T's essence.
For educators, this episode offers insights on resource selection, curriculum planning, and professional development. How might you balance practical skills with conceptual understanding? How can we ensure D&T remains relevant and engaging for all students?
Connect with Kitronik
- Social media: @kitronik (X, Facebook, YouTube, Instagram, TikTok)
- Website: www.kitronik.co.uk
Products and resources mentioned:
- Craft and Code (pre-launch info)
- Drag Racer: Product
- Drag Racer: Resources
- Electro-Fashion resources
Acknowledgement:
Some of the supplementary content for this podcast episode was crafted with the assistance of Claude, an AI language model developed by Anthropic. While the core content is based on the actual conversation and my editorial direction, Claude helped in refining and structuring information to best serve listeners. This collaborative approach allows me to provide you with concise, informative, and engaging content to complement each episode.
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you're listening to the talking dnt podcast. I'm dr allison hardy, a writer, researcher and advocate of design and technology education. In each episode I share views, news and opinions about dnt. So this week I've got two people on the podcast. I'm starting to get, I think, a little bit more experienced about having more than one person. I've gone from just being me to one and now to two. This is my second recent recording with two people and but these two people are actually in the same room, so that makes it a little bit easier possibly to manage, and, whereas of the previous one I've just I'm a derrick and Derek and Alice they were opposite ends of the country, so that was.
Alison Hardy:That was a little bit different but anyway, I'm rambling on this is part of the talking D&T series around shaping the design and technology curriculum, and I'm taking a slightly different angle this week and I've got somebody here who I've known for quite a long time and somebody I've only met about a month ago, who both work at a local company it's Nottingham Trent and myself and Sarah Davis have worked with them. So that's the suspense over. So I'm going to hand over to them and let them introduce themselves. So we've got Kevin and Becky from Kiptronic, so would you both like to introduce yourselves, say who you are, where you are and what you do.
Kevin Spurr:Should I go first?
Alison Hardy:Yes.
Kevin Spurr:Okay, shall I go first? Yes, okay, so I'm Kevin. I can say I've known Alison and Sarah at NCU for quite a while. Obviously you may have heard of Kitronic I hope you have but this is a company that I helped found about 20 years ago now and the purpose has always been really to supply D uh, dnt resources and products in um to schools in the uk. Now we have grown a little bit out of that over time and we now also sell um overseas, internationally and we sell online. But our focus has always been, and always will be, um in schools um, so yeah, um so yeah. I do all kinds of things here really. I guess sort of being high up, but one of the things I deal with is sales and visiting customers and seeing what people are up to, and that's what kind of my team does. And then we've recently had Becky who's joined us, who's been a teacher.
Becky Forshaw:Yeah, so I'm Becky new to Katronic in terms of probably about four or five weeks now I've been here. I was a teacher three, four years sort of teaching assistant cover supervisor roles before that. But I'm now here part of Katronic doing a lot of teaching resources along to go alongside the products.
Alison Hardy:And I'm right becky, your experience is around primary design and technology, isn't it? Yeah, that's right. Yeah, predominantly primary, okay, okay. So when I came in with sarah a few weeks ago, you were sort of showing some of the resources and some of the things that you were doing, which is quite interesting and quite useful to have you both on, because I think there's something about so there's what the curriculum says, and think there's something about so there's what the curriculum says. And then there's the resources that are available, you know, and the opportunities and the projects and the equipment that schools can use and can afford, and so and I think that also shapes then what happens in classrooms it's also ties into teachers' knowledge and their passion. So that's why I thought it'd be quite interesting to have you both on to kind of talk a little bit about some of the things that you do at kitronic and how that is sometimes adapted for school, or the resources that you do around that to help teachers engage with that. Does that make sense?
Kevin Spurr:yeah, absolutely yeah, I think so, and I think, for me, we've always tried to not just be a company that just sells things, but we're trying to sell a solution. It's probably not quite right, but teachers have got a lot of pressures on, haven't they at schools, outside of just crowd control, all the things that goes on in a classroom and pressures on their time, so I think what we're trying to do really is we've always tried to provide engaging projects, that we're trying to do as much as we can ahead for the teacher, make their life a bit easier. What we aren't, though, is teachers or I certainly am not.
Kevin Spurr:I mean, this is what's great to have Becky on board but, so sometimes we've left the minutiae of like linking into, like what we're ticking off in the curriculum to the teachers themselves. But we are trying to make. You know, I like design. We've done a lot around electronics but it's not what we do all the time.
Alison Hardy:But yeah, trying to find things that would be have a real interesting design element to that students can do themselves is is of interest so what are some of your things that have kind of you've done almost right from the start and you've kept doing what sort of products or projects?
Kevin Spurr:I suppose you know, with some of the things that did well for us very early on, um, things like uh, we did like a very simple bike light. You know simple electronics, uh, easy for the students to make. But then there's like an endless amount you can do around the outside of that, in housings, packaging, design, you know, in 3D printing a case, making it out of wood, making it out of different materials. Do students have to consider, you know, environmental factors? Will it work well in the rain? Things like that. But that was also done well because of the costs. So one thing we'd probably find tricky, alison, is you might see a million great ideas maybe not affordable by schools.
Alison Hardy:Yeah.
Kevin Spurr:And we do find that there's a price point where things sell best and obviously we're commercial, we do need to pay our wages. There's been some great things I've seen in private schools where a project might be, you know, 30 to 40 pounds per student. That's not practical for most schools, no. So you know, the challenge for us, I guess, is finding ideas that are engaging but also affordable.
Alison Hardy:The challenge for us, I guess, is finding ideas that are engaging but also affordable. Yeah, yeah, so the things like the bike light, and I know that. Well, maybe we'll chat a little bit in a moment about the work that Sarah did with you and some of our students. But yeah, becky, becky, what, what are you finding around the sorts of things that schools are looking for around primary in design and technology?
Becky Forshaw:for around primary in design and technology, definitely. Well, regarding what kevin's just said, coming from most recently, a single form, primary school, right, budgets are absolutely the main thing. Of course we want something that is suitable, it's appropriate, that's going to be engaging, it's going to be, you know, ticking off the things that we're set out to to cover um. But it's appropriate, that's going to be engaging, that's going to be, you know, ticking off the things that we're set out to to cover um. But it's incredibly difficult when budgets are so tight. So a lot. You have to be creative with it. Um.
Becky Forshaw:Since coming to katronic though, it's been very eye-opening actually, because I didn't realize the amount of things that there actually are in terms of dt electronics and whatnot, because I guess electronics isn't majorly covered in primary. But the way that it can slot in is really exciting from what I've seen um, especially because some of the components and whatnot are really affordable and sort of knowing that from our side we know that a pack of I don't know 10, 20 components for a project would be good for a class. But what I want to do through the resources, is sort of making it obvious, making it clear, that these components could also be used for a different project by the same school in a different year group and so sort of making sure that the versatility is is clear.
Alison Hardy:Yeah, yeah, yeah, I think there's probably been quite a knock-on effect about cost, about then projects not being taken home that not excuse me that being so much for driver and so then that causes a flexibility or a shift possibly in what you're doing as well yeah, and obviously what's different in primary is they're unlikely to do things like soldering.
Kevin Spurr:A lot of our products are traditionally out soldering, though that is something we are seeing a movement away from a little bit um. So but yeah, you know, within in in a primary school, it's a little bit of a different thinking, always really isn't it um, but we see that as a um, an opportunity for us.
Kevin Spurr:You see, it's a different market to where we've traditionally been yeah and then I think one of the things I mean, you've been around how our offices here, haven't you? Yeah, I think one thing people maybe don't realise is the amount of manufacturing we do. Yes, we've got quite a lot of expensive electronics manufacturing equipment here and we're talking like hundreds of thousands of pounds worth. The machines are expensive but these are the same machines you'd see used to make an iPhone in China or something like that. That's what they are.
Kevin Spurr:But what that allows us to do, becky and Alice, is we might see an idea and go great, that would work for schools, but we can't buy the off-the-shelf thing, because that bit of electronics we can't buy like the off the shelf thing, because that bit of electronics we can maybe source, it wouldn't be suitable for a student. So what we might say is actually we need to make that ourselves but make some changes to it. So there's like a opportunity for addition of an external switch or buttons to turn it on and off. So we need some pads that we on that PCB that those students can just solder to that bit and so that, because you know, the designs the students are making require a switch to in a different position. We've not got an injection molded plastic case and things like that, and that's why we do a lot of that manufacturing, because it lets us take an idea yes, but then change it in a way that then makes it suitable for a 12 year old yeah, yeah, it gives you that flexibility, doesn't it to?
Alison Hardy:to respond to what you know the curriculum needs, what the costs are or what what the options are that a school can cope with yeah have you and I've.
Alison Hardy:I did take some pictures when me and sarah came around a few weeks ago. Um, so I'm going I'm going to put those out on on linkedin as well to kind of show, because I was gobsmacked when you said that you know, this is similar to what's used for making for an iphone. Um, you know, it sort of shows you how you've moved on from when me and sarah came what must be 10, 12 years ago to your old place in nottingham as well yeah, the sort of madly child, and part of that's just having to respond to the way electronics has moved.
Kevin Spurr:So you know, originally we might have had an amplifier. Amplifiers were very popular. They're becoming less popular now because they don't have the headphone sockets on phones. But the IC that was in those that did the amplification would have been like a through-hole traditional solder-style IC and then over time, because commercially they weren't used, they were phased away so then you're left with.
Kevin Spurr:You can still buy those, but they're in a surface mount package and a student couldn't put those down. So we have to use the machines we have here to pre-place some parts, while still leaving the extra bits for the students to do themselves right, yeah, so they've got they've still got an opportunity some design and development, but there's like a basic yeah, that chip might be pre-placed or like a usb connector. Yeah, or usbc connector, something like that.
Alison Hardy:A student is not going to be able to solve that down no, so so sticking with secondary for a minute, then have you noticed over time not just a shift in the products but in terms of um, the information that you're needing to give to teachers about, because their subject knowledge around electronics? And the reason I'm asking because this the time with this morning is I've just sent off the proposal for the fifth edition of the learning to teach design and technology book and I'm kind of doing quite a major restructuring part. But we've always had a chapter in there about electronics and I've actually put to go to the reviewers to say do we still need this chapter? How much of it is being done? So what's your perspective as a company? I'm going to come to you, becky, about primaries. I think that's going to be really interesting as well, but what about in secondary?
Kevin Spurr:So I'm guessing 20 years ago, when we started, there were people teaching like fundamentals of electronics, so maybe how an app works or things like that. I think that's drifted away.
Kevin Spurr:Right, I would align with what you're saying and I think a lot of that can you remember well, you would know better than me. But you used to dnt, but dnt wasn't like everyone did the same dnt wasn't. You know, some people would have done like a systems control, like dnt or different things, and I feel that that's drifted more towards your kind of product design style theme of dnt um. So there's an interest in maybe having electronics in there, or doesn't we do things that aren't just electronics, um? But I feel that the dnt um project is more about maybe like you use a case um. You know what. What is a user requirement? You know what's the design requirements, what's the look of it, what's the? You know it's more of a product design form?
Alison Hardy:yeah, the form rather than the function. Maybe I don't know that's how you sort it's more of a product design form.
Kevin Spurr:Yeah, the form rather than the function, maybe I don't know that's how you sort of you're seeing it in schools, but that's that's the kind of sense I get possibly yeah, and I think.
Alison Hardy:I think that kind of sense is around subject knowledge, about time for teachers to develop their subject knowledge. There aren't so many undergraduate courses.
Alison Hardy:Like you know, we had one at nottingham trent, so there was more time for the students to gain that subject knowledge yeah and um, and we were always teaching them about the different material areas you know um, textiles, electronics, food to use old language, resistant materials as well.
Alison Hardy:But we were also teaching about how you integrated all of those for the fact what we would see as a true design and technology approach. But if you don't have those undergraduates and then you've got postgraduates coming who may come with a fashion degree or an architectural degree or a product design degree and again may not have that electronics, then they're going into schools where you don't have teachers who have that and you're not getting that subject knowledge time. Where do you get it from? So actually, I think there's that side of it reducing as well that and you're not getting that subject knowledge time. Where do you get it from? So actually, I think there's that side of it reducing as well. You know you've got cost, you've got staff expertise, uh, teacher training time, all all having an impact, um, but yeah, yeah, I suppose it's what constitutes the design and technology.
Kevin Spurr:So it's like technology. Do you think of that as electronics, or do you think of that as using, like CAD-CAM manufacturing, or you know? What does that mean it's quite a loose term, isn't it really?
Alison Hardy:Yeah, it is. And, interestingly, another thing that I've just written, I seem to have something else coming out soon. I've written a history of design and technology, um for edge foundation, looking at the evolution of the subject since the early 1900s. Um, but in the beginning of the report I've done a section about we first of all need to understand what we mean by technology, because it's talked about in so many different ways. Um, you know, is it technology as in? You know I'm waving around, as you know, a pencil? You know is? Is that that's technology or is it, you know? Is it technology as in you know I'm waving around that's? You know a pencil, you know is. Is that that's technology or is it? You know, the contact lenses I'm wearing, or is it the microphone? Or is it something as simple as a fork you know and we don't? Or is it the processes you know? Um, so you know the systems, processes and such.
Alison Hardy:So I think that's always been a challenge in the subject. Is what? What do we by this term, this word technology? And I think it is all of those things, but we don't necessarily articulate that, and aware of that, anyway, I can wrap it on. This is not about me. This is not about me and my thinking and me kind of waving around and I've published this and I've done this. But no, it's just been one of those weeks this week, and it's just been one of those weeks this week and it's the end of the week.
Kevin Spurr:I tend to kind of be trying to no, I mean, but to go back to your point. I do feel that there's less emphasis on understanding the harvest circuit would work.
Alison Hardy:Yes.
Kevin Spurr:But there's more interest in having a product that maybe has some form of electronics in it, whether that be like for an amplifier or blue. I mean. A bluetooth amplifier is an example you know that can make a nice project.
Kevin Spurr:They're never going to understand how that works you know, you know there's a, you know, bluetooth protocol is not a simple thing, it's not, you know, wireless mod, you know. So really it's more of a a building block, isn't it a component within a bigger project, and we see that with lighting and other things. That's going on. And I mean we're trying to do some things lately, haven't we, with like motors. We find like motors, I think, are really interesting, but they can be quite hard to add to projects at an affordable price, and so we've been trying to do one around like what on drag racing, haven't we? So? You know it would power a motor for an exactly timed period of time okay um, and then you know you could.
Kevin Spurr:I think there's lots you could do around that, like who can have the the fastest? Uh, drag race or you can make a vehicle that travels the the furthest caravan's coasting afterwards. So you're looking at like weight of materials, aerodynamics yeah, a whole load of things you can do around that, but trying to make make that affordable for schools as well yeah.
Alison Hardy:So I suppose I would call that maybe more like a mainly making, because actually what you're doing through that making and that construction is, as you say, they're thinking about weight, density, you know the shape, the aerodynamics, and they've got to do something around distance. So they're kind of bringing some science in. But it's it's thinking about form in a different way. Rather than making it visually appealing, it's actually its form, as in it's it adds to its function. So I think that'd be quite a quite a nice project, right? Okay, yeah, that's interesting to sort of taking a different way. So do you do you find yourself having to do more resources for the teachers around the subject knowledge and maybe, becky, this might be something around what you've been doing for the primary sector?
Becky Forshaw:do I find that I need to make more resources? Yeah, or do you?
Alison Hardy:think that's going to be more that that teachers will.
Becky Forshaw:You'll be kind of giving in your information that with a product or a project, more that's for the teachers, about teaching the children the subject knowledge that they need to do it yes, I've been doing that sort of naturally um, because, having been a teacher, I know how, how little guidance we get um from the powers that be, and so you know we get a page or two pages in a document, um that doesn't give us examples.
Becky Forshaw:It two pages in the document that doesn't give us examples. It gives us an overview but it doesn't give us examples, and so it's very difficult if you don't have that background knowledge and, like you said, you don't have the time to get that subject knowledge that we desperately want but can't necessarily get. It makes it much easier if it's combined within the resource. So if the rationale is already there for you, if the objectives for the lessons are already there for you, if the success criteria for the lessons are already there, then you know that everything that you need to cover is is in there, and so I've been making sure, as I'm going through the resources, that I'm putting in the information regarding why this is important, why this specific step of the lesson, of the scheme, is crucial to aid the children's understanding, in turn helping the teachers' understanding as well.
Alison Hardy:Yeah, so are you giving within those teachers much flexibility about what they can do? Does that make sense?
Becky Forshaw:yeah. So while I've been going through them, I've been sort of highlighting areas where you might want to do this instead, or perhaps this would fit better for your learners, and sort of giving. I don't want to say differentiation, but that sort of option to take it in different ways and how they might want to interpret it. So it's whilst it's. I'm ensuring that everything that we're giving is um, is reasoned, is justified. I'm also making sure that it's not just you pick this up and go with it. You can take it in what direction you find fits best for your learners, yeah, and for your topic or theme that you're focusing on.
Kevin Spurr:So every child have the same solution do it at the end yeah yeah because, that's yeah, not the essence of dnt, yeah, I mean.
Alison Hardy:I mean going back to the drag racing. In some ways they do have the same product, but it just does slightly different things, isn't? It's why? That's why I would call it a mainly making, because you're not really. They don't really need a design brief, do they? And do lots of research. The research that we're doing is about shape and weight, isn't it? And actually it's a really nice activity for children to be doing, where the teachers are teaching them technical language in a way, around around power, around density, as you say, about, about weight, um, aerodynamics I don't even know what the language is around aerodynamics. That wasn't part of my, my industrial design degree. That was a long time ago, but yeah I think it's that, isn't it?
Alison Hardy:it's about what? What can you tease out that it's not necessarily about the end product of this, this vehicle that goes a long way or does something fancy. It's actually the learning that you can draw into that that brings it on. So becky, coming back to you, what, what, the sorts of projects just do a little bit of an advert about what sort of things. If you're a primary dnt teacher, what have you got.
Becky Forshaw:What have you got?
Kevin Spurr:yeah, yeah, I don't know what I can say, so I guess the point, allison, is that, um, we've not had a big range of primary things, particularly that have a dnt crossover, because we know, um, predominantly secondary.
Becky Forshaw:Yeah, so many secondary dnt what.
Kevin Spurr:What we have done, though, is we've you probably know that we would for a number of years now. We've done quite a lot around the micro bit for coding and so and that doesn't just sell to dnt a lot of times it sells to computer science teachers, and especially globally. Um, that's an area where we've actually seen the uk a lot of movement down into younger age groups, and that's also been driven by the fact that there were schools were donated 30 microbits free of charge this year, and so most schools in primary schools now should have access to them. But we wanted to do a crossover product, didn't we? So we didn't. We wanted to have some coding, but we also wanted to make it like a, a craft in making age appropriate yeah thing where you know they're just sitting in front of a computer and code.
Kevin Spurr:But they also got the opportunity to craft and make something that used the coding.
Kevin Spurr:Yeah yeah, yeah, so, and that's reusable, so that you know it's affordable for the schools, because, even though it costs a bit of money, it's in a tub and you know becky could use it, and then, when she's finished, she could pass it on to a friend who's teaching, like you know, another of a different year or a different class in the same year. And this is what becky's been mainly working on for us so far, um, and we call it crafting code, don't we?
Becky Forshaw:yes, I didn't know how much is already out there, so I didn't oh I see I said that was your.
Alison Hardy:You don't want to give away the game when it's not being publicised.
Kevin Spurr:I understand. So, yeah, we're looking to launch this later this year, but this is what Becky's been working on resources for, and it's not just one thing, is it? They can choose from a number of projects.
Becky Forshaw:Yes, there's five projects that are in there. I can't even say predominantly Upper Key Stage two, because as I've been going through, I've sort of been seeing how some of these projects could be lower key stage two, sort of year four, um, maybe year three, um, and I just I'm so excited about it, just know that kids will love it because they love to make, they love to craft, they love to draw and to create things. But then seeing the their projects almost come to life, um, and seeing that physical, tangible object that they've designed, seeing it move or seeing it operate, is it's amazing for children. They love it, they absolutely love it. And I know it gets a lot more serious in secondary and sort of as you go up into key stage three and four, um, but I think the joy of key stage two and designing and making and having that outcome is something that is really special. And yeah, yeah, that's where my passion is.
Kevin Spurr:Do you know what I love about junior schools, or like is is. We always talk, don't we, about like, um, even in secondary schools. I'm cross-curricular learning, stem, or whatever it might be, globally, you know, um, but it's really hard to deliver, isn't it? Because the teachers pressure to deliver their subjects. You know they're not going right. I'll tell you what we're going to do. We're going to do, we're going to share lessons with physics or maths or coding, or, but in the primary market, then, that's, one teacher teaches everything, don't they?
Kevin Spurr:yeah, yes so, you know, it's really great to do something where there's an element of making and crafting and building, but it's also tied into this. They can do the coding, can't they? Which is a different thing. But you know, we're using Makeblock, which is very much like Scratch, which junior schools know. So if the students have used that before, I think the transition to Makecode is very easy, isn't it?
Becky Forshaw:It looks similar.
Kevin Spurr:I think that's a joy. Joy, really, that students aren't like going. Oh, we're just doing art now, yeah, or you know we're just doing this, or now we're doing um, computer science actually can include a lot of those into a project that lasts, for what we're looking about, six weeks yeah yeah, yeah, yeah I think, I think, I think that I think that's something that's really powerful about primary um around that, that ease of making connections because it's it's one class, one teacher predominantly.
Alison Hardy:But I also think, becky, what you're saying there about that joy of them realizing them seeing is is so vital. I mean, that does happen right the way through into key stage three and four, you know, into secondary school, and I think part of that for me is around that the children are able to see almost a part of them outside, if that makes sense, because this thing that they've created has come from them and so they're seeing it's. I think I'm thinking it's like it's an extension of them. So when they very proudly show somebody and say, look at this, so they're seeing it's, I think it's like it's an extension of them. So when they very proudly show somebody and say, look at this, actually they're kind of also saying, look at me, um, but having that thing that's separate from them kind of gives that a little bit of distance.
Alison Hardy:But also, yeah, it is, it is them, they've put something into it. So I think that's that's really important. They're seeing their ideas, they're thinking come into a reality, um, so I think that that's really exciting. Yeah, so it'd be really great. I don't know if you can, um, but when I publish this, we could put some links in the show notes to any sort of tasters of things that you've got that we can show, of course, yeah, yeah, that'd be great.
Alison Hardy:That'd be great because obviously I, we me and sarah came in. I'm like a little bit, can I talk about that? You know we came in and saw some stuff, um that you were playing around with and it, and it looked really good and you could sort of see how you know it was adapted um and you know, suitable for primary school age.
Kevin Spurr:But you know, go on it's just not a quick process. That's the thing, isn't it? Because?
Kevin Spurr:yeah it's one thing writing a resource, but then you know we have to check them. Don't we say like I've got a nine-year-old, she's been in here like with becky, um, trying things out, and then you know we'll do classroom testing things. So it's a case of us, you know. I think we've learned over time that the resources we can't just guess at the resources. You know we really need to try and, yeah, the best they can be, and I dare say we could go back to the resources we did 20 years ago and improve them. That's, that's always a difficulty.
Alison Hardy:But, um, we try and make sure if we're doing going forward is really well done yeah, yeah, yeah, and I think testing them out, well, you're, you're doing what is dnt, aren't you, by testing them out, giving them to the client, you know. But, yeah, yeah, I'm sure if you want anything testing out, we could find some additional people who might sort of try some things out too at our end. But, kevin, I mean, one of the places that me and Sarah started with you was around e-textiles.
Kevin Spurr:Yeah, yeah, and we still do that.
Alison Hardy:I was going to ask yeah.
Kevin Spurr:Yeah, so we've got our range. We call it electro fashion, so this is generally very simple. Electronics doesn't tend to be any coding. Where you know, we use a conductive thread that's like a sewing thread but it's got like silver nanoparticles that are sort of technically embedded into the so they don't rub off the part of the fabric at that point and that means that they can be used to conduct electricity. So they don't rub off the part of the fabric at that point and that means that they can be used to conduct electricity. So, instead of having wires or something in a hat or a T-shirt or a purse or whatever you've designed to make, it's possible to add simple electronics into there. And I also remember Sarah did a lot around creating switches, which we've still got those resources on our website and that's good because you know you can make a switch using a piece of conductive fabric. You know you could have a I don't know a nut or something that you've threaded around and that can make an intermittent switch.
Kevin Spurr:So if you're close to moving around it could flash on and off.
Alison Hardy:Yes.
Kevin Spurr:Things are making contact, there's some really interesting things you can do.
Alison Hardy:Yeah, yeah, I remember we did. We used some of your stuff with our undergraduate students and you know, around doing stuff with e-textiles and I hadn't had the dog very long at that point, and it was this whole idea of taking this black dog out at night in winter walking around where I live how do I keep him and I visible? And so, yes, they came up with all sorts of weird and wonderful and sensible ideas about, you know, using e-text that they could put on the dog and put on me, um, as well. So, yeah, it's interesting to see. That's still. That's still ongoing. So so what's next?
Alison Hardy:wow that you can share. That you can share it's.
Kevin Spurr:Well, that's tricky, really, isn't it? I mean, I guess? Um, well, that's tricky, really, isn't it? I mean, I guess there's things we're always trying to do. Things might be. Has technology moved on and has allowed us to make things that were good ideas but unaffordable? Affordable now for schools Again, like a Bluetooth amplifier would be an example of that, where prices have come down drastically over the years, and it's also just sort of it's weird, but we're just looking out in the marketplace. All the time, like you know, has a new consumer product come out. How does it work? Is that something we can take inspiration from and create a product?
Kevin Spurr:yeah um, it's not always that easy. You know, having good ideas isn't isn't easy. Um, I mean, we visit schools as well, and sometimes some of the good ideas we've had have come from like unusual things we've seen schools doing okay yeah, um, and sometimes they'll.
Kevin Spurr:They'll be buying like I don't know, they might be buying a module off ebay or something they go. Well, you know we're doing it because we like the idea, but we're you know this is frustrating and actually we can take that idea then and with our equipment we can redesign it and manufacture it and make it like a much better solution for a school, for students.
Alison Hardy:Oh, that's interesting. I was curious about how, yeah, so you've got your existing products, that sort of come in and out of fashion as you say around. You say around, you know you don't have a jackpot anymore on a phone, and then you've got things that you modify, like the text. I think that's really fascinating about the thread. I'm gonna have to get on the phone to say after this and talk to her about that and say what we're doing, what we're doing with this. And then you've got things that you're going out and you're seeing and yeah, I mean, I think that's really fascinating about dnt teachers is I see some stuff on facebook. Some of it I kind of wish I didn't see from some.
Alison Hardy:But anyway, that's a whole other story, but some of it, I think, crikey, I've not thought about. And then, yeah, she said getting bits off off eBay or or here and there, and just thinking how can I, how can I bastardize that, how can I play around with it? Yeah um, and and then yeah, you're going in and thinking, oh, we could, we could maybe improve that. I've not thought about that, and sort of seeing that product development from that perspective yeah yeah yeah, the biggest challenge is always affordability yes, yeah
Kevin Spurr:and that that's the thing. And you know, I think our experiences I'm sure your listeners have noticed that maybe budgets aren't they under pressure, aren't they? Yeah, but I have also seen that I feel a bit more of a I wouldn't say a renaissance in D&T, but it feels to me like it had a bit of a tough time when the EBAC was first coming in and everyone was trying to push all subjects that didn't drop into the EBAC to one side. So you know, let's do two humanities and two languages. Do you know about e-bac? Really?
Becky Forshaw:I don't know if you are yeah, we covered it briefly at uni so it's like a there was these core subjects everyone's like well, we're not measuring on it, but we're going to put it in a league table.
Kevin Spurr:Yes, so you were a bit measured on it. So what schools were doing? They were saying, like, actually you need to have a humanity, humanities and a language, and we'll go. Well, let's make students do two and then we can take the best score of those two. That'll help our EBAC scores. But then then Ofsted came around and went to school as well. We're going to mark you down because you're now off in two narrow curriculum. You're not offering music, you're not offering art or yeah and I'm seeing it sort of yes, that's really positive.
Alison Hardy:The downside is um is teacher numbers yeah, that is the big, that is the biggest issue. I suppose that's why I was curious about what you're doing. I mean, it's not necessarily your place, but if, kind of, if you want to sell your stuff, you've got to have the teachers who know how to use it, haven't you? So that's why I was curious about what you're doing to upskill and and give them that subject knowledge. But, yeah, because there's a fear, isn't it, that we might, even, as the subject maybe comes back, um, to some level, you've lost a lot of that subject knowledge yeah, is it simplified, you know, because of that I mean, I mean it's the same in other subjects.
Kevin Spurr:They went to school, they were, they were teaching computer science. Um, really great teacher, you know, because of that, I mean, I mean it's the same in other subjects that aren't to school. They were, they were teaching computer science. Um, really great teacher, you know, background in computing. But he was the only one and the rest of the teachers he had teaching computer science, you know, were backgrounds in all kinds of things and not remotely related. So he had to write his own resources in a way that they were deliverable by an unskilled teacher. And I guess that's how we try to think about things. Like you know, even a teacher's not got a background in what's needed in the project. Can we make it simpler? Simple enough that you know anyone can deliver and the students still have a very engaging, yeah, an enjoyable time, and that's what you're doing, the primary school things, isn't it?
Alison Hardy:it is, yeah yeah, because I was thinking about, you know, if you're doing programming, you know doing any sort of, um, that sort of control. You know there's lots of if, if this, then that, and sometimes that program goes slightly wrong and it's the unpicking, isn't it? It's the, the finding the fault, finding the error. That can be quite scary and quite daunting, um, so how are you addressing that sort of thing, becky and any other things you know teachers might be having to do, any problem solving?
Becky Forshaw:good question. A lot of it is doing our own research, right um and the testing isn't it? And the testing. Yeah, I dare say over time that we may end up with um, and the testing.
Kevin Spurr:Yeah, I dare say over time that we may end up with like improving those resources over a period of time. Or we might even have like I don't know, like a forum or somewhere where teachers can come and ask and you know you can support them. Yeah, that'd be cool. Yeah, things like that. Or we might do I mean, we don't do it now, we have done it in the past. You know we could do. Do like we could do, just drop in video. Yeah, like lessons whereby, okay, if you bought this product or a different product becky knows a lot about. You know, do we have like you can?
Kevin Spurr:it's free yeah let's jump on a video call and, like becky will demonstrate it or whatever, and then ask any questions people have.
Alison Hardy:That you can go through at that point yeah yeah, that'd be really, really handy, I think yeah give them a voucher, a code to enter, sort of thing, yeah, just periodic things.
Kevin Spurr:I mean what we. What we do do, though, is we still have a phone number. You know which is not all companies do, so, um, anyone does have a problem, they can, that's what we're here for.
Alison Hardy:they can call us yeah. Yeah, because it's quite a skill to do that, isn't it as a teacher? When you're faced with you all know this, becky faced with a child who's going well, I can't get it to work or it's not doing this, and it's, how do you teach the children to do it? But also, how do you do it as a teacher quickly, while you've got the other 29 children starting in the background as well? But yeah, anyway, lots of food for thought there. So thank you very much both of you. It's been really interesting to catch up. Yeah, me and Sarah really enjoyed the visit a few weeks ago to meet you, becky.
Alison Hardy:And yeah, thank you, and that was a serious offer that, if you know we've got contacts with secondary school teachers. I know you've got local contacts and others. But if you want to kind of try a different audience, we've always got teachers we can put you in touch with to try different things out.
Kevin Spurr:But yeah, thank you absolutely. That'd be great, yeah, yeah. And do we now owe you lunch, kevin? Well, I think you might do.
Alison Hardy:Yeah, becky, kevin took me and sarah out for a very nice lunch afterwards, oh lovely. So, yes, yes, didn't, didn't do my trip to slimming world that evening. A lot of anyway I enjoyed it. No, it's good to chat with you both. Thanks ever so much, you too Brilliant, thank you.
Alison Hardy:Bye, I'm Dr Alison Hardy and you've been listening to the Talking D&T podcast. If you enjoyed the podcast, then do subscribe, on whatever platform you use, and do consider leaving a review, as it does help others find the podcast. I do the podcast because I want to support the D&T community in developing their practice, so please do share the podcast with your D&T community. If you want to respond to something I've talked about or have an idea for a future episode, then either leave me a voice memo via speakpipe or drop me an email. You can find details about me, the podcast and how to connect with me on my website, dralisonhardycom. Also, if you want to support the podcast financially, you can become a patron. Links to SpeakPipe, patreon and my website are in the show notes. Thanks for listening.
