Talking D&T
Talking D&T is a podcast about design and technology education. Join me, Dr Alison Hardy, as I share news, views, ideas and opinions about D&T. I also talk about D&T with teachers, researchers and academics from the D&T community.
The views on this podcast are my own and of those I am interviewing and are not connected to my institution. Much of the content is work in progress. As well as talking about D&T, I use it to explore new ideas and thoughts related to D&T education and my research, which are still embryonic and may change. Consult my publications for a reliable record of my considered thoughts on the topic featured in this podcast.
Podcast music composed by Chris Corcoran (http://www.svengali.org.uk)
Talking D&T
Beyond Words: Teaching Technical Skills Through Conversation
In this episode of Talking D&T, I chat with Simone Norman, a D&T teacher at Sutton High School in South London who also leads on equality, diversity and inclusion. Our conversation examines a fascinating paper from the PAT40 conference about conversation analysis and variation theory in technical education, which particularly resonated with Simone's teaching experience.
We explore how teachers plan and deliver technical demonstrations, examining the intricate interplay between verbal and non-verbal communication in the workshop. Simone shares compelling insights about the evolution of student-teacher conversations, from directing year 7 pupils to engaging in collaborative dialogue with year 13s about their design decisions.
One particularly fascinating thread emerges around the role of sensory learning in D&T - how sound, smell, and touch become crucial indicators of process success or failure. We discuss how teachers can deliberately plan for and use these elements in their demonstrations to deepen student understanding.
For D&T educators, this episode offers fresh perspectives on teaching technical processes and skills. Consider how you might more explicitly incorporate sensory awareness into your demonstrations, or how you could use planned 'failures' as powerful teaching moments. The discussion challenges us to think beyond just the end product and consider the rich learning opportunities within the technical processes themselves.
Whether you're teaching in England or following D&T education developments internationally, this conversation prompts important questions about pedagogical approaches in our subject. How might you apply conversation analysis principles to enhance your technical demonstrations? Let's continue exploring these ideas together!
Acknowledgement:
Some of the supplementary content for this podcast episode was crafted with the assistance of Claude, an AI language model developed by Anthropic. While the core content is based on the actual conversation and my editorial direction, Claude helped in refining and structuring information to best serve listeners. This collaborative approach allows me to provide you with concise, informative, and engaging content to complement each episode.
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you're listening to the talking dnt podcast. I'm dr allison hardy, a writer, researcher and advocate of design and technology education. In each episode I share views, news and opinions about dnt. This week is another episode in the pat 40 series and today I'm with simone norman, um, a dnt teacher who was involved in the organization of the conference. Um, she's raised her eyebrows at me so I'm thinking I'm hoping I got some of that right, um, and we're going to talk about a pat paper that she listened to. That really resonated I'm using her words now. Resonated with her. So, simone, first of all could you introduce yourself, who you are, where you are and what you do?
Simone Norman:okay, so I'm Simone Norman and I teach at Sutton High School in sunny South London and I'm also the Equality D, the equality, diversion and inclusion lead at the school too. Um, I've been teaching for some time, and um I think over 20 years and um I am a happy dt teacher who's very curious about the world basically around her so you were involved in the pack conference.
Alison Hardy:Um, if I remember right, yeah, leading on the work. Yeah, it was so that was quite interesting, um, I think.
Simone Norman:Well, first of all, at my school we have sabbaticals, and it's not long, it's it's a month's sabbatical and uh, so obviously, after working for some time, I decided, oh right, I've got a sabbatical coming up. What have I always wanted to do in design and technology? And one of the things that I've really wanted to do, from since I was trained years and years ago at Brunel, was actually get involved with the. I think it's the International Journal of Design and technology, um education, and I know that when I was reading, when I was training, there was lots of journals coming out from um.
Simone Norman:I think it was TU Delft and then I realized reading through all of those, there was this conference, the PAT40 conference and finally, after all those years, I actually thought right, let's, let's do this, let's find out, let's go to a PAT40 conference, because I always knew it was happening. But for once I actually thought I'm going to try and get involved. So I contacted matt and matt just said join our conference uh organization team.
Simone Norman:I just sent an email. I think that's the thing you've got to. You know, if you've got that kind of dream and interest in doing something like getting involved in academia outside of everyday teaching, um, I think you just got to email someone randomly and then go from there, and it worked so did you enjoy it yeah, so in the in the conference.
Simone Norman:Oh, the conference was really great. Um, so it took about a year to build up towards the conference. Uh, matt gave me lots of options of how to get involved. It was either to create, create a poster, write a paper or help coordinate the workshops. I like coordinating things, so I went down the workshop route and that in itself was quite eye-opening.
Simone Norman:I think this might have been the first time that there were kind of workshops running alongside the actual conference proceedings and it was nice because in the end we had three workshops with very different experiences and those experiences you know, reading through the papers, getting the resources ready and prepared, it just gave me a really good insight into what was happening outside of the world of school. So one of the workshops was an animation workshop, so very hands-on learning based on the UN Sustainable Goals. Another one was a roundtable talk about a book that had been recently launched. And the final one was Comics. As a Pedagogy, which was just really, I snuck into that one, which was really great because it was a way in which comics are used to learn about technology and ways of knowing. So that was really good fun, that one. That was something that attending that workshop made me realize that there are ways in which we can implement inclusive design and yeah into what we do and what we teach so no, the workshops are really, really good fun to organize and be part of but it was uh, yeah, oh, yeah, good so oh, my paper oh there were so many
Simone Norman:there were so many fantastic papers at that conference.
Simone Norman:There was, uh, you would sit in the proceedings, you would sit in the presentations and you would just be asking yourself questions, and the kind of person that likes to question as I listen, and all I came off with is just a load of different questions, but one of the one of the ones that really stood out for me was a paper from a vocational technical college, I think in Sweden, and it's titled.
Simone Norman:It's a very nice long title, subject-specific Pedagogy in Technical Vocational Education and the Implementation of a New Way of Teaching, and it was Axelson, kilbrink and Asplund, and it was just. It was a paper that just meant something to me because it reminded me of I will always go back to when I first start teaching, as we do as teachers um, but it just reminded me of that moment when your, your teacher, actually trusted in you and started to believe in what you were doing and just almost coaxed you to become a better student and a learner at the same time. So it's it's it's based on something really conceptual. Uh, it's conversation, analysis and variation theory approach, which I had to get my head around but you know.
Simone Norman:I sat there and just wow, I get this, because I've done loads of stuff in the past. I've been a neat teacher in the past where we've actually done video recordings. I don't know if you've been around things like that, alison, where you have to record your lesson and look back and think about who you are as a teacher. So I did a lot of things like that, but I never really sat down and looked at the actual technical processes that we are teaching. You know you're always thinking about learning towards the exam, but this was the point where it was like actually I'm teaching you a skill for the future. I think that's where vocational education is very interesting. So that sitting in that presentation, it was just nice and it was great to see it in Swedish. So even though they showed a video clip of this technical skill, all in Swedish, but you just felt I know what's going on there, you know, you just know it.
Simone Norman:So it was really really eye-opening and I think that's what grabbed me that conversation analysis really did yeah, yeah.
Alison Hardy:So let's unpick what this is. I'm just having a look at the paper now. Um, while while you were talking and it talks about that the the basis. I'm going to read this sentence out and we'll put a link in the show notes.
Alison Hardy:The paper the basis of computational analysis and variation theory approach and they abbreviate it to CAFTA is the position that learning includes the dimensions content that is, what is to be learned and process, how something is learned, and I really like the fact that they've separated the two out. So what is to be learned and how it is to be learned, which involves more of the pedagogical choices and the interaction between the person doing the learning and the person teaching is is really important in this approach, isn't it? I'm just going to stop, just apologize to people if they can hear a bit of groaning in the background. Is we have. We are accompanied by Kip and he's not a willing participant today, but I have somebody else in the house, so I have to lock him in the room with me and he's not happy, and occasionally I'm getting a grumble that's telling me he's not happy.
Alison Hardy:I'm just saying that's not me, or Simone grumbling or moaning. It's Kip. He's cute, but he's laid on the floor looking at me, shooting me. I don't want to be in here. That's like teaching at the end of term, and I've also made the mistake of of leaving the biscuits that I've got him out in the other room so I can't even go and get them. So life is really dreadful for him. It's awful. He's 11 on wednesday. I mean it's shockingly bad.
Alison Hardy:You know shockingly bad people bought him a present, good lord anyway, sorry I digress gives people a bit of a break, maybe to open the paper and have a have a look. So, yeah, kafta is all about um, yeah, the conversation um, between what people are learning and breaking that down into certain aspects and being aware, as a teacher, that there's different aspects to learning this process and in this case, they're looking at welding, aren't they, which some teachers listening might go.
Alison Hardy:Well, that's not applicable, I think. Get away from the idea that their focus is on welding. It's not on welding. It's about this interaction, the conversation, the aspects, what's been learned, how it's been learned, and using these two theoretical frameworks to help them with that.
Simone Norman:Yeah, there is so much like I'm just looking at this whole paragraph. When you have a conversation in dt and I think our conversations in dt are so different.
Simone Norman:Having observed other subjects, our conversations sometimes will have this natural free flowing where none of us know the answer. Yeah, none of us will. You know, there's an idea we've got. Students sometimes will come up with an idea that they need to produce and we as teachers need to guide the students through that thinking. But when we don't know that thinking answer too, we then have to generate a conversation. Yeah, to help kind of almost unpick it.
Simone Norman:And you like one of the things that when we have, like I think of all the conversations I've had in the past two or three weeks and after reading through and starting to think about, well, what conversations do I have, I had a really good conversation with a student that I taught from year seven all the way up to year 13. And you know I said to this student what I keep I've had so many conversations with you over the years because we've been speaking for ages about DT and things that you're designing. What's the one kind of thing that really kind of resonates or has meaning to you? And she said she said something like you always used to say to me don't ever say what do I do now? And I didn't realise that that was one of my key points of our conversations.
Simone Norman:In year seven. You know I've taught this student how to use a pillager. I've taught the student how to use a sewing machine. I've taught them to design digitally.
Simone Norman:There was always a point where I'd always say please don't ask me what to do now, you make that decision. You know you're designing a product, you need to make that decision. And I think that conversation has now changed. So in year seven I would, you know, direct information at her like you must do this, you must do this. But then there must have been a point when I was teaching her I just said no, don't ask me what to do now. You need to decide, need to decide.
Simone Norman:And then we've got all the way to year 13 and the conversation we're having as a 13 year old, like compared to a year seven student, a 13 her as a year 13 student, like in the final year of a technical education at my school when she's 18, 17, there was times when she was telling me what she wanted me to do to help her with her project. Yeah, but you know it's a really long action research project just based on the conversations you had with this one student to get them to the point where they're directing their know, like their knowledge at you, and they want. This is what I need to know. This is what I want to do to gain, you know, an understanding of my design idea. What do I, what do you do now, miss Norman? So so it's just that that exchange conversation and how it changes over time is just as interesting as trying to teach a technical skill as well. So, yeah, kavta has got this kind of. She's got me thinking loads about the conversations I have students.
Alison Hardy:It's interesting yeah, yeah, I mean I've I mean, I've just just hearing you talking about it is thinking about that importance and what. What the, the conversation, analysis and this variation theory seems to be saying as well is about the importance of planning oh yes, and it's not just planning a lesson it's, it's it's planning. I mean, in this case it's a demonstration, isn't it?
Alison Hardy:yeah it's planning the demonstration and being aware that there's numerous different aspects to what the children are learning. Yeah, students are learning in terms of the process that could be brought to the front, but it's the teacher being planning what they're going to bring to the front. They're going to foreground at different points in the presentation and then they seem to be then pushing it back to the student and saying so. So do I stop? Do I go back? What? What do I do? It seems about planning the demonstration. It seems to be really key.
Simone Norman:When I think about in terms of teaching a technical skill, like you know, you are teaching students how to use the machines and equipment you will have other things to think about. Like we've spoken about it before, I think, where we spoke about the importance of sound, and with CAFTA, the paper, they actually talked about the importance of sound and with CAFTA, the paper, they actually talked about the importance of sound when you're welding. And I think, when we, when we teach a technical skill, sometimes we're so busy trying to get students to understand how to we forget to teach them the little kind of specifics around it. So the specifics around it is like you said. You know, when you teach a student how to use a fret saw, you must want them to understand that if they don't hold down a piece of work, it is going to make a racket. And if you have that conversation at the start, okay, guys, you need to listen to this, listen to the conversation we and you are having, yeah, but also listen to all the things that are happening at the same time and so you can see.
Simone Norman:You know, one of the great things about this conversation and analysis is also, it talks about gestures and symbols and so, like if you could, if you were doing a full-on research with this, not only would you record all of the information from the conversation, but you'd also maybe start to record the gestures, the facial gestures that they have made. Yeah, like you know, there there is that look of gestures, the facial gestures that they have made. Yeah, like you know, there is that look of surprise the look of oh, that doesn't sound right.
Simone Norman:You know, the other day, I think, we were sewing, we were making tote bags in year seven, and one of the students started to sew and the sewing machine wasn't making the right sound. She stopped, looked up at me and it was the case Ms Norman, is that right? Is that right? And I knew it was right. It's just that that machine is particularly noisy. So I had to say to her no, no, it's okay. Yeah, if we listened, listen, that's fine, it's okay, I'm going to come over, sit there and it will make the same sound, yeah. So you will need to have confidence in that action, but you can carry on. And then that conversation we've had, you know you talk about that, it was just a look on her it's like, oh, I've done it totally wrong.
Simone Norman:It's like, no, it's okay. But then again, you know, if you did that conversation analysis, it'd be interesting to see what what comes out yeah, it would.
Alison Hardy:And they talk about, don't they about? Yeah, they talk about the, the verbal and the embodied. Yeah, um, that it's not. You know, and and and the whole body being part of learning. And I I've talked about this in previous episodes. You know where learning involves the whole body and and this is talks about conversation analysis, but this isn't conversation, that's just verbal. It is, yeah, as you say, gestures and everything.
Simone Norman:Yeah there's a beautiful moment, I suppose, when, when you are, it's a beautiful moment when you're actually using the tool and machine and you know there's just sometimes. There's this point when you're working alongside a student or with a group of students and everyone just knows where they're supposed to be.
Simone Norman:You know, you've had that conversation, maybe at the start of the lesson, and it would be like the silent gestures that you are doing. So you know, you might say, for example, I don't know, someone might pass you something, and then you pass it on to the next person you know, and it's just I don't know to the next person you know, and it's just I don't know. There is that point. I suppose. When we are learning, we don't step back and look at, like it says in here, for how something is learned.
Alison Hardy:It's that moment to step back yeah, yeah, yes, yeah, and, and using using the senses, as you say, and we you could do it through. Well, we can think about being in a, in a workshop which is primarily involving wood and metal and plastic. You can smell when something's not right, can't you? You know, you know as well as hear it, you can I think that's one of the coolest things.
Simone Norman:When a you know a kid comes in, what's that smell? It's like, oh, it's the laser cutter. Oh, what have you been doing. And then you have the whole conversation with the student about, well, actually it was like, oh, it's the laser cutter. Oh, what have you been doing. And then you have the whole conversation with the student about, well, actually it was for this project and this happened and maybe the setting was wrong or maybe we needed to change filters, you know. And then it's amazing that then they are learning about that process. You know, rather than it being this kind of like here's a picture of the machine Just through those experiences of entering a room and smelling and seeing and things, and the conversation, you as a teacher, rather than just saying, hang on, I've got something to do, but actually bringing them in and saying, okay, I'm gonna have a conversation with you about what's, yes, yeah, and then they'll learn there at that point yeah, yeah, and that that's what was you know.
Alison Hardy:it is planning that learning, though, isn't it? It's being aware, and I don't think sometimes, when we're planning to teach a process that the children are going to do, that we don't break it down to start to think about where are they using the different senses, you know? Where are they using how it feels to cut it? You know how it sounds or how it smells? I mean, we don't do so much taste, whether, if we're talking about the plastic, um, but you know, in food, if we're using food, then yeah, that taste, yeah, and the feel of something is so important and we have to teach them that.
Alison Hardy:And that does involve the body, and I really like it in the transcripts and if people can get up, do have a look at the paper on page six it talks about. I mean, this kind of seems so innocuous, but actually, if this is planned as it has here in this transcript one, you can kind of there's so much richness of what's what's, what's been learned, because you know, they talk about the welding and they talk about the fact that nothing is said.
Alison Hardy:the teacher is just just is doing it and that there's, there's a noise and it's got popping and the teacher asks the question should there be more wire or less? And turns towards the students but keeps welding and the students respond more, and you know, and then so the teacher increases the knob you know this wire speed, and then more, you know, yes, and the student nods, and the changing and the changing of the sound and how. That is important so that the student is also tuning their senses to understand what the sound does, what the sound does. And I, you know you talked about quite a bit of a pre-checking, about this um, about, you know, planning for something to go wrong in a demonstration, um, and Matt, matt defines this as after failure, planning a demonstration after failure. So I'm going to deliberately going to do this wrong. I'm going to deliberately have, um, a large drill bit, um, you know, eight, nine mil through a piece of four mil acrylic and I'm just going to whack it down so quick, I'm going to have it on the wrong speed and let's see what happens. What does it sound like? And it goes wrong.
Alison Hardy:And then you turn and you've planned that again. So what happened? Okay, well, it splintered it crap. Why do we think that was. What could we do differently, should I? Okay, let's try it again. You know, now I'll clamp it, you know, and I'll bring it down at the same speed. I've started to, you know, and you can just see. But it's even then, even more powerful if you get a student doing that and rather than doing it to failure, as you've deliberately just done, watching the child and having the class around and saying so, there should be more, more speed less speed more pressure, less pressure, less pressure.
Alison Hardy:Yeah, yeah, because we don't, because we do stuff that's such high risk in dnt in terms of they get to make it once you've got one piece of acrylic right, actually, we need to practice because we need to learn, yeah, to understand how the material is going to react. Yeah, so is this is the thing I think we. I just find this fascinating. I'm really pleased you picked this.
Simone Norman:It's like it's. I think sometimes it's having the confidence to do that to as a teacher, to show that confidence that I am going to show you how something fails, because sometimes I think as teachers we try to be this perfect design and technology teacher. You will get everything perfectly right. That's. That's not the point. I think children enjoy learning from what they see and if it's wrong at that moment, you know. One of the best things I've learned from the people have taught me how to teach is to just be in that moment. Go, oh god, it's not worked.
Simone Norman:I mean, just last week, a student they were doing brazing with our technician and she got carried away and started to melt her copper tube and I said to her at that point we had the conversation. She was quite, you know, oh, I can't believe I've done that. And I said okay, step back. Let's take a DT teacher, look at this. And as a DT teacher, always, always, joke, you always step back and look and fold your arms and just look at what's happened. And I said let's look. And she wanted to have a conversation about it. You know like she was like but, but it's like, no, let's just look. Let's look and think what are we going to do about this?
Alison Hardy:just take a moment and you know, in my head I'm planning, thinking right.
Simone Norman:do I do? A? Do I make her do it again? B do I ask the technician to help out? C so in your head. You're planning whilst you're getting the student to think as well.
Simone Norman:And then at some point and this is a year 10 student, so at some point then, you know, she kind of looks like I'm going to have to do it again. It's like, well, okay, don't worry, if we have to do it again, we have to do it again. This is, you know, that's, that's what's happened. But you take a picture of that and you make sure you explain what and how it happened. So you know it's that, that whole conversation, now that's that's an assessment, yeah, and also, you're doing the conversation.
Simone Norman:It's really weird. You're doing the conversation, analysis, variation theory in your head. So I reckon most teachers will naturally be doing this in their head. But imagine if you actually document. You know me just saying that means what to document it? Look at it, say, well, if I had to do that again, what would I do, you know, to stop that happening?
Alison Hardy:yes, so this whole thing is really interesting, this paper, isn't it? Because it gives you a tool to reflect on what you do as you're just doing, on what you do as you're just doing, and then it gives you a tool to plan yeah, yeah, yeah, in terms of planning a demonstration for them to learn that process, that skill, um, and sort of yeah, as I said, bringing bringing those different senses to the foreground or those different aspects to the foreground, as is, as is necessary. Yeah, and excuse me, I mean I was interesting that you're talking about a year 10 and we, we get very driven. I hear teachers talking about being very driven. They don't say explicitly all the time about the outcome, the finished product, and it's.
Alison Hardy:It's that balance in teachers planning between, look, is this, is this about them learning this process, practicing it so that they really understand this process and they're getting better at it? Actually, that's two separate things in itself. Isn't it learning the process and then practicing it to get better at it, so that they can then use that, select it when they are designing something for themselves independently which needs an outcome? So it has an assessment, and I think we kind of get caught up in trying to do all of those things in one. I think and I don't think you can do all of those things in one all of the time to actually develop pupils in the subject in the way that we would want to in terms of their dnt capability, yeah, you have that tussle, don't you really do like as a?
Simone Norman:you know, am I teaching just that process and is that going to be it, or what's the bigger picture? And I think as having taught this for this long and look reading beyond, you know, beyond exam-based documents and things like that. When you start to read research, you do start to question and I you know, and every now and again, I can see myself just tipping towards. It's actually just about learning for the future and I'm not talking about, you know, getting the perfect grade this top you know, that's great, that's going to get you somewhere.
Simone Norman:But what skill are we learning for the future? You know, and I think knowing that a student will have some understanding of that process and have the confidence to try a new process, or have the confidence to if it goes wrong, I know I can do this yeah, this is almost like having that confidence to have that risk, or have the confidence to pick yourself back up again, and I think, in the generation that we're teaching now, I think sometimes that is a lot more important than just worrying about that outcome. So it's for me, it's that process is in the journey that you've got there, and I think, I think we teachers need to. I know it's hard, but every now and again we need to just step back from the system that we are in to actually think well, what are we actually creating here with these students? What are we getting them to learn and when are they going to use it in their future? When are they going to take it away and actually apply it to something that has meaning to them?
Alison Hardy:But their future might just be later in the same year.
Simone Norman:You know, I don't know, it doesn't matter. I don't know, maybe I'm too much of a dreamer. You know, like 20 years down the line.
Simone Norman:That student says oh I remember that time I did this. This is when I'm going to apply that skill. But, um, but yeah, yeah, you do. When you, when you read that paper, you start to really break it down into chunks, you do think to yourself what is, what's the important value that we are teaching you, you know yeah, and what's exciting is they've actually got funding to for a new project, haven't they?
Alison Hardy:on this about approaches to subject-specific teaching in vocational education. Now, dnt, you know, is a general education, so it's not necessarily a vocational education, but there are aspects that are relatable to what we do in terms of pedagogy, so, so I think that's going to be a really exciting project to follow. What's nice about this paper? So, simone, go on. No, go on. I'm going to ask you a big question, so I'm going to let you go on.
Simone Norman:What's nice about this paper is by teachers working alongside an academic as well. And they worked as a team, so within their communities that was quite cool yeah.
Alison Hardy:Go ahead as a team, so within their communities, that's quite cool. Yeah, sorry, go ahead, alison. Yeah, yeah, no, I think that is, that is neat, that is and that is the way to do it, I think um, the two coming together. So I'm going to ask you a big question, because you started off by saying you know you had this opportunity, you found this opportunity to take part in the PAC conference.
Alison Hardy:You're interested in that kind of academic thinking. So what about? What about your research and what are you doing? What are you planning next? I have hopes.
Simone Norman:Yeah, oh, you're crafty. What are my plans?
Simone Norman:well, obviously, because my edi role has kind of taken me a bit away from my teaching in dt. I'm still teaching everyone doing that, but, um, I think I think what I've been doing is applying design and technology principles to equality, diversity and inclusion projects, and so one of my big things that I'm trying to plan hopefully for next year I love doing whole year group projects and you know my master's was on actually conversations trying to get kids to empathize with their clients. So now I want to do it on a bigger scale. I've always wanted to do that bigger scale, uh, with I think, 120 students and create design almost like a experience and a resource where I take them outside of school and we will look at the conversations that we have outside of school about equality, diversity, inclusion to create a designed outcome.
Simone Norman:I'm thinking a pop-up exhibition somewhere cool, but that's kind of within school. But I think somewhere in the future I could, if I've got my act together, actually start thinking about doing the next level for research. Yeah, that's a big, big question, a big answer.
Simone Norman:But yeah, there's so much to play with. I think I can see where design technology is starting to go beyond classroom teaching, and I can see what it builds in a person, how it helps a learner become a better person, and I think we need to do that more. There was a great presentation. I think it was Do no Harm. I think that was it.
Alison Hardy:Oh, David.
Simone Norman:Spendlove, that was great. I think he was talking more in terms about sustainability, but you could take the word sustainability out and talk it about humanity and caring for each other and I think that's where I'd be heading towards that.
Simone Norman:I think. I think Pat Forty helped that as well, right, well, pat Forty helped that because that was like it was worldwide. It was global, and I think that's that's one of the things. People maybe don't understand that even though DT is very different here, it might be different to other countries, we've all got this common thread of wanting to do it better.
Alison Hardy:So yeah yeah yeah, it's like getting involved in the made world understanding it, changing it really like that yeah well, thank you very much, simone. I'm glad I've left you with just a little question at the end of that, after you picked a really challenging paper, but really exciting paper, so thank you for sharing that. That's fantastic.
Simone Norman:I've been pondering on it for a long time now.
Alison Hardy:I can see. I can see, yeah, and you know, for an update on K kip. He's moving closer to the door to hit. You know, get this door open.
Simone Norman:But you know he's showing less and less interest, but he's turned his back on me now, but anyway no I know, I know he'll sulk.
Alison Hardy:He'll sulk at me. He does this if I go away for a few days and I leave him with my mum, he's like excited for the first two minutes.
Alison Hardy:That's a teenager you left me. Yeah, well, he's 11. He's probably not. He's not slowing down. So he's not slowing down. Yeah, he's a stroppy old man. Anyway, anyway, look, that was great, that was great. And I think if people get you know, people download the paper and they have a look at some of the references you know, and, yeah, I'm going to contact the authors after we've published this episode and say, would they?
Simone Norman:like to do a podcast and do a follow-up.
Alison Hardy:I'm like fangirling them so yeah, yeah, yeah, I'll get you one as well.
Simone Norman:We'll do it as a three-day brilliant anyway.
Alison Hardy:Thanks ever so much, simone. I'm dr allison hardy and you've been listening to the talking dnt podcast. If you enjoyed the podcast, then do subscribe, on whatever platform you use, and do consider leaving a review, as it does help others find the podcast. I do the podcast because I want to support the dnt community in developing their practice, so please do share the podcast with your D&T community. If you want to respond to something I've talked about or have an idea for a future episode, then either leave me a voice memo via Speakpipe or drop me an email. You can find details about me, the podcast and how to connect with me on my website, dralisonhardycom. Also, if you want to support the podcast financially, you can become a patron. Links to SpeakPipe, patreon and my website are in the show notes. Thanks for listening.
